Reaching Out

For what it's worth, this sort of sexualization is common -- maybe universal -- toward communities that make people uncomfortable. Some people still believe being gay is all about getting off, and I'll bet white people (especially white women) involved in black civil rights were seen as fetishists. On another track, "furries" (fans of anthropomorphics) still get it constantly.

Sexualization is a form of ridicule -- which says more about the writer's attitudes toward sex than anything else.

The sad part is that the targets too often become awkward and unsure about their sexuality. Those who *are* attracted to (people who are the same sex, fat, black, or cartoon animal critters) can become neurotic from hiding or denying it; those who aren't trumpet their non-interest like it's a sign of health.
The thing is, there's a grain of truth to the "accusations." There are more men sincerely involved in fat activism who prefer fat partners than would be found in the community at large -- a LOT more. There's a correlation. Unfortunately, "correlation is not causation," is one of the hardest facts for most people to understand. (One counterargument to use: "Homework causes cancer," because most people who have gotten cancer also did homework.)

The problem isn't the presence of the sexually interested in our movement, or any movement. The problem is that it's seen as an *accusation*, both in and out of the movement. It's a hard thing to fight. But the first step is for each of us to stop believing that it's shameful. Then everything you say and do will disprove it.

Paul, all I can say is I feel for you on this one. I love this blog and I love Red No. 3 (now give, who's the other one? Heh.) I'm er...not a feminist, so you can imagine that while no one has directly said anything about it to me (and might not want to bother with me being a noob to the movement anyway) you can see where that puts me in the scheme of things wrt the online fat community. But, wise people have told me to write about what matters to me and not worry about popularity, thus I do. I really believe all people are individuals and most of them know pain in some form or another, and there is always some commonality - we can seek that or we can seek our differences and spotlight them. Like I said recently, I prefer to seek a rising tide to lift all boats, not to cut anything from under anyone to make it equal. Take it for what it's worth, if anything.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

I'm glad you brought up the lack of men in FA, Paul. I've noticed this for years, and been sad about it.

To me, FA isn't a feminist movement. It's a movement about fatness, not gender. OF COURSE there are massive relevancies and overlaps between feminism/gender issues and FA, but IMO, not necessarily any more than the massive relevancies and overlaps between FA and anti-racism, or FA and anti-homophobia, or FA and the disability rights movement.

FA is, at its heart, a PROGRESSIVE movement.

I do believe that any individual person has the right to feel that FA and feminism are part and parcel of each other. To say "for me, in me, they're all wound up together." Because they are -- but so are all the other intersectionalitites. I wonder if the "fat is a feminist issue" slogan is part of the reason we have fewer men in the movement than women.

rebecca

http://diceytillerman.livejournal.com/

Wow, it never occurred to me that your motives would be anything but pure. But I admit that I've been using your presence as a palliative, i.e. "well, sure there aren't many men in the movement, but one of them is Paul, so that counts for several." Which allows me to put the issue aside, which isn't cool.

I feel like feminism is the gateway into FA for a lot of women... they get socialized with the idea that their body is public property, feminism blows that idea open, and then it becomes easier to accept the notion that hey, the size of your body isn't anyone else's business either. And once you're attuned to feminist issues it's also easier to see the subtle ways in which women's bodies are policed. Is there something that can serve as a similar gateway for fat men? (Or should we just be trying harder to bring guys who are already involved in feminist communities into the movement? There's Amp already, and I think Jeff Fecke is with us too. )

I would be satisfied if more *fat* men were involved, feminist or not, fillyjonk. JMO.

I do agree Paul is worth a few and I just realized that the third is Men in Full - I'm not a livejournal person so I haven't been interacting there. Like reading it though.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

I am a white woman, but I've lived in areas where being white made me the minority. So I don't know from the intensely personal experience of being black and fat what that is like, but I can share what I learned through watching.

In black communities that I was a part of, fat people weren't treated the way they are in white communities. Black guys would hit on me, while white guys never would. Now maybe as society gets increasingly obsessed with thinness this is changing. It's changed in places like Fiji and India, where curves were once celebrated as beautiful and our now not looked upon as favorably.

I wonder if part of the problem in reaching out where race is concerned doesn't have something to do with cultural differences... that's just my perspective as a former anthropology student who saw firsthand that there are culturally different attitudes where fat and curves are concerned. If something has generally been accepted, it's a lot harder to push a movement of acceptance.

Gender is another story. I don't know the fat men have it easier, really. Though to watch TV you might think so, since there are a number of sitcoms where heavier men have hot, thin wives and you never see a fat woman with a hot, thin guy. Hell, you rarely see a fat woman portrayed positively at all. One reason I always loved Gilmore Girls was that there was a character (Sookie) who was overweight and her weight was a complete non-issue. She got married, had babies, even had an incident where a former friend had carried a torch for her for years (and actually, in retrospect, he was thin). The same actress (Melissa McCarthy) is now on Samantha Who? playing a character that is far more typical of the sort of roles that are given to fat actresses.

But I digress... Paul, I would like to tell you that I think there are a lot of men out there, secretly hoping for the fat-acceptance or HAES movements to catch on because they believe in these movements... but sadly, I think you are rather unique in our society. My many dating experiences prior to being married taught me otherwise. I would date guys who either wanted me because they were into "big girls" or because I have huge boobs and they were into that on a woman of any size... or they never called me again. My husband is the only guy I ever dated who accepted me for ME. Who didn't see me as a size or easy screw (because that's the other reason guys dated me - everyone knows fat girls are easy!). He saw me as a person he really liked and wanted to get to know better. Before long, he saw me as the woman he loved and wanted to marry (he waited a bit longer than I'd have liked to clue me in on that part!).

So, I'd love to see more men standing up for the FA or HAES movements. I just don't see it happening. We're all so brainwashed as a society about what is healthy and what equates beauty. It's all so twisted up in knots.

Maybe your presence will ultimately encourage more men to take a stand. I sure do hope so. I think it sucks that people are so fat phobic they want to turn what you are trying to do into something ugly and lurid.

I don't believe for one moment that that's what you're about.

~Juliet

"One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well." ~Virginia Woolf

Let me clarify fillyjonk - I don't mean misogynists, just fat men who may or may not be interested in feminism. IMO liberty and justice should be for everyone

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Dimensions?

And here's a plug for feminism. Sorry, I have to.

As a feminist, I am not opposed, against, or anti-men. I don't think the concept of men in any movement, including the feminist movement, is mutually exlusive of, for, with (or any other word) feminism, I think you can be male and feminist. I think you can be feminist and welcome men into the feminist movement.

The concept that we can even begin looking at fat, talking about our bodies, and saying: Hey, um, what this culture expects of us, what this culture wants us to do to our bodies in order to fit some ideal, that is a feminist concept. The groundwork for those thought processes were laid within feminism. We would not be here without feminism.

That said, we are missing lots of people in this movement, the FA movement, as has been pointed out this week. Have the feminists made the men feel unwelcome? I apologize for my part in that. Do the men feel less able to talk about fat because they aren't supposed to care about their bodies the way women are supposed to? Is it because the cultural messages are different? I don't know. I am curious to hear more about this topic. Fat rights are something that is important for everyone across the gender spectrum.

Hey Paul, have you heard about Steven Shaw's book that's coming out in July? He's the guy who co-founded eGullet and did the "Fat Guy" columns on the old Salon. The book is going to be called The Fat Guy's Manifatso; Celebrating Men of Substance. Maybe a book like this will get more men into the movement.

Yeah, I remember the "Paul's Harem" dude. That was some funny shit. I mean, the very idea. Although I'm sure you didn't find it particularly hilarious that you had to become registration-only because of it.

I think there IS a perception among guys -- even fat guys -- that FA is one of those "girly things" like salad. Even if they agree with us, they don't want to be contaminated with the Girl Cooties that would come with being a full-on Movement Member. As with nonwhites, it's one of those things that goes in a vicious cycle -- men (and/or nonwhites) don't participate (although we'd love it if they did), so the movement looks like it's just for white women, so more men (and/or nonwhites) don't participate, and on and on. As it is we do have some fine male bloggers on the 'Sphere -- not just you and Brian, but also Jon (Tiger of Size Acceptance), and the Men in Full Livejournal. For that matter, we do have quite a few nonwhite bloggers participants also, Jon included, but there's no question that the overwhelming public presentation right now is white and female. I hope that will begin to change.

I, for one, am here for the sex. Where the hell are all the hot fat guys, so I can get MY harem?!?!?!

In all seriousness, I think a lot of the various nails have been hit already - gender stereotypes ('cause "real men" aren't supposed to give a shit what they look like), fear of "girl cooties" (Meowser, you slay me), and maybe a little internal conflict over wanting to shag fatties while still thinking they are actual people....I think all these play a part.

Also, I think a general low profile for "The Movement" has a part to play. I think, as Fillyjonk says, a lot of folks stumble onto fat rights while digging into feminism (not saying it's *just* a feminist issue, but fat is definitely *at least* a feminist issue), which may just draw more chicks than dudes. I think as we raise the profile, with a clearer and stronger message, some of that may change.

Not that I have any particular ideas, though.

Oh, and:

you never see a fat woman with a hot, thin guy

Dawn French and Richard Armitage in the Vicar of Dibley. He's a little skinny for my blood, but tasty nonetheless.

Annie, you misunderstand my point. I said that feminism is the gateway to FA for many women, and asked if there was a comparable gateway for men. Then I pointed out that there are already men in the feminist movement, which has been proven to effectively usher people into FA via breaking down the idea that bodies are public property to be policed and standardized, and so perhaps we should be reaching out to them.

I'm glad you brought this up and I would love to add it to the intersectionality convo if we have one at the next Think Tank.

I could probably write a whole post (wait, I practically AM writing a whole post) on this because there are so, so many things I believe contribute. I will say that I have tried to talk to men who are somewhat involved in the movement (or at least supportive of the concepts) about why there aren't more men in the movement, but I have really never come up with much of anything other than speculation. So all I've really been able to do is conjure my own sets of analyses.

The way fat affects men is in many ways different than the way it affects women (yay, intersectionality!). Oppression of women's bodies is pretty up front and obvious, at least on a certain level. Women are taught that their value lies in their looks and taught to monitor their body (and the bodies of other women) more diligently. Women's bodies are more often used for advertisement. In general, the body is central to feminist dialogue, so it makes perfect sense in feminist context. And fat IS a feminist issue (though not exactly in the way Orbach outlined), but that doesn't mean it's not ALSO a men's issue or a disability issue or any other kind of issue.

The problem of sexualization and the assumption that any man who'd be involved with the movement is sexualizing women is a problem of our systems of GENDER and SEXUALITY. The assumption is that any man who is attracted to a fat person is a freak who has to justify their attraction and any man (be it Leonard Nimoy or otherwise) who associates himself in a positive way with fat people must also secretly be that freak, unless he's gay and then his masculinity is already discredited. People don't have a huge problem with women associating with fat people because women are supposed to be empathetic and understanding of the human condition. Well, unless you hang around a LOT of fat people and then people will probably assume you are a "freak", particularly if you are not fat yourself.

This is all embedded in what people take for granted. The assumption is that any interest men might have in a movement that helps women must be tainted by sexual interest. Men who call themselves feminists must just be using it to get into women's pants. This assumes heterosexuality, for one. It also assumes that men don't benefit from a feminist movement or a size acceptance movement (which is why there must be some sexual stake)...very gendered assumptions.

These assumptions...that the body isn't an issue for men...and that because of that they must have some sexual fetish---are things I imagine keep men out of the movement.

If you don't consider yourself a man, imagine that you are one, a fat one even. You have been socialized, in some of the same ways women have, that you shouldn't talk about your fat unless you are disparaging it or scheming on ways to get rid of it. You have probably been socialized not to talk about it in the "fuzzy" or "emotional" ways women talk about it. It's not supposed to be an issue for you--and if it is, you are supposed to laugh it off and "take it like a man". You have also been socialized in various ways that women are supposed to be objects of desire--OR that any person a man desires is an object that a man holds sexual and other power over. We should also probably add that you are taught that all fat people are grotesque and disgusting, and that anyone who is supposed to be an object of your male desire (whether it be male or female) should not be fat.

As that fat man in this society, you could, for example:
1) Take to heart those assumptions, meaning you would never even consider being involved in the FAM.
2) Recognize that society is hurting you and your body because you are fat--but feel ambivilant about it because you've been trained to be.
3) Recognize that society is hurting you and your body--and also recognize that you don't like it...but still understand that if you joined the FAM, people will make assumptions about you that you'd rather them not make. And maybe you're not willing to have these assumptions made about you.
or
4) Recognize that society is hurting you and your body, that you don't like it, and that people will make assumptions about you for fighting against it, and say fuck em. (I'm pretty sure that's you, Paul.)

There are lots of other possibilities, but what I'm trying to get across is that although men have privilege, they are under the same gender system and it constrains them exactly because it's there to "keep people in line". But men aren't taught to recognize the constraints of gender the same way women are taught those things, in part, because they do have a heckuva lot of privilege in many ways that have been made obvious through feminism and the women's movement.

And if you aren't a fat man, people are going to think you have even less "genuine" interest in the FAM...because they don't see any connection at all between you and FAM. And from what I understand, many non-fat men don't feel any connection to it until they experience fat stigma through someone else--often a fat partner. This complicates things, though, because men ARE probably taught all the things above even if they aren't fat, and so they still have the same constraints on them. And because they DO have a sexual interest, and they are taught that their sexual interest is what's important in being a man, and because they aren't experiencing the stigma and discrimination directly, they may care more about their sexual interest than the rights of fat people. That's a reality of our social condition...of our gender system.

And that's one of the great reasons we CANNOT leave feminism out of the picture of fat acceptance. The whole oppression of women thing is INTEGRAL to the oppression of fat women in the same way that race is integral to the way that POC experience fat.

But the message we've got to get across is that fat and the body is an issue for EVERYONE, though they might not understand it to be. And understanding the fat component is NOT enough. We have to strive to understand the other ways other oppressions and experiences intersect with fat, which is exactly what Tara was trying to get across.

That means:
1) We are expecting a heckuva lot of people (not that we shouldn't)
2) We are going to have a LOT of work to do to foster understanding.

Maybe that does mean we try to recruit progressive men, but a lot of us know progressives aren't always likely to be persuaded (because again, same constraints as everyone else). I do think it means we should work on communicating why the FAM and fat rights and SAM is important to men, especially fat men.

So I'll start. I don't know what needs to happen to get more people of color involved. I can't speak from that perspective. So... ideas are welcome. Let's talk about it.

I don't really know either. It's confusing and complicated to me. I've known persons of color who are involved in the fat rights movement, but it's maybe it's third or fourth on their priority, with race, class, neurodiversity, lgbt or gender privilege issues coming first. Or maybe it's a small part of the whole picture. Just like I can't really separate the issue of my fatness from my experiences as a woman in an often sexist society, I doubt people of color would separate out their race experiences living in a racist society. Honestly, my feeling in any movement is to get everyone involved. Get white people involved in anti-racism, men involved in feminism, thin people involved in fat acceptance. It feels odd in fat acceptance, however, and I believe it is because everyone believes they "own" the issue of fat. Kind of like with class issues, I'd imagine. The whole bootstrap I had it tough, I was able to become successful, you can too mentality. Sure, a person might be thin, but if she worries about her weight her whole life, she thinks she understands the issues of living as a fat person. She can't, as far as I'm concerned, but like I said in a different post a few months ago, we all have such vastly different experiences in being fat anyway, that I don't know that it really matters.

I have known thin people in the fat accpetance movement who seem to get it, and some who say they get it, but who can be very critical of fat people, and it's almost like they are saying they support fat acceptance because it is acceptable to do so in certain progressive circles.

The post at Fatshionista--I thought it was interesting that she says it is an offensive myth to say that people of color are more accepting of fat bodies because this isn't true in her experience as a person of Taiwanese background. Honestly, I haven't heard anyone say that all persons of color are accepting of a larger size, just that some segment may be more accepting: notably certain black and maybe latino groups. It seems odd that she would be talking about backgrounds and privilege and the like, and then deliberately misinterpret this idea and try to apply it across the board to all POC regardless of other life factors. Not all POC are Asian. Is she trying to make the point that Asians comprise a large number of POC and they have different issues? She could have phrased that more carefully, if so.

Also, I reject the idea that fat accpetance is fighting for the right to be seen as pretty, but I can't disagree that that might be a goal for many in the fat acceptance advocates.

I may have, fillyjonk; I was reacting more to "should we just bring in more feminist men" as opposed to is there another gateway for bringing men in, period.

IMO there is another worthwhile gateway that could potentially involve a lot more men, that being libertarianism (equalists, etc), but it's necessary to get the facts out as Sandy and others are doing so well, to get them to understand that, while they'll defend your right to stuff yourself with twinkies on the couch all day (so long as you don't ask for taxpayer money to help you afterwards), that most people aren't fat because they do that...it's a whole other gateway, and it's waiting to be tapped. But there are prejudices in there that have to be dealt with, through solid fact-finding and fact-based debate with people who deal in logic and philosophy and so forth. I haven't figured out a way to start introducing it to that market yet, but I'm working on it.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

I know even before I write it that this post will come across as disjointed and incoherent. I guess this subject touches a bit of a nerve with me and brings all manner of insecurities to the surface that I'd rather honestly not think about too deeply. In short, I don't know whether I have a place in this movement. Not only am I a guy, with all the privilege that implies, (although I'm 'obese' by medical definition I fall toward the lower end of the scale), I'm one who, despite endless attempts to change or deny it, has a physical preference towards a larger partner. I know that this should have nothing to do with securing equal rights for fat people. And whilst for me it is relevant because without the first-hand experience of a long-term relationship with a fat person I'd have struggled to appreciate the sheer velocity of the social hatred toward people of size before I myself became fat, I am also more than aware that many of the more radical activists consider me every bit as dangerous as those dealing out discrimination, that I must automatically want to see fat people remain oppressed to serve my own ends. No, I don't focus on or fetishise fat people to the exclusion of all other aspects of someone's personality as so many others do - I'd like to think I'm not that shallow. But I have certainly found myself accused of 'settling' or being in search of an 'easy lay' - even though anyone who knows me would probably laugh at such a description (I'm painfully shy and perennially insecure). I met my now-fiancee on a dating site for big people (mainly because I lack the confidence to go 'on the pull'!), and for some months I was a poster on Dimensions - yes, I admit that I let the amazement of finding that there were others like me overshadow my reaction to some of the deeply disturbing stuff on there for far too long. And whilst I experience the frustration of the lack of clothes to fit my 40" waist, the accusing stare of the checkout queue lifestyle police and the pressure from Men's Health and the rest to obtain 'perfect pecs', I didn't grow up fat, and I don't live a particularly healthy lifestyle - in many ways I'm the epitome of the 'bad fatty'. I don't know whether with these credentials I'll ever be truly welcome as a size activist, and there are certainly places I'd never dream of posting a comment on. But I'd still like to believe I have something to contribute to the wider cause.

i believe that anyone who truly wants to end the discrimination against fat people, both men and women, should be welcome in the movement.

and uh, pretty much everything sevendaywonder said covers what's been rolling around in my brain, although she said it far more eloquently than i ever could.

~Maggie~

Richie - if you have no place in this movement, I certainly don't. Nor would I even want it, after I've read what you've been writing. For heaven's sake, don't think of giving up - even if 99 percent of the existing FA people rejected someone (which I don't see them doing) that would still be no excuse for him/her to stop trying and fighting for the cause of justice and liberty for *all.* Would it?

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

@Richie

You are EXACTLY the kind of person we need in the movement, and I think anyone who is a strong part of the movement can see that while your attraction might be connected to your understanding of fat as a rights issue, it is not THE reason you are involved. The history of fat women being taken advantage of and their vulnerabilities exploited makes things complicated, but I have found it is usually pretty obvious (to me) whether someone has a genuine interest in making a difference versus just an interest in getting laid. Similarly, the seriousness of anyone in FAM is clear when they talk about rights versus making an argument purely about the proposed beauty and sexual attractiveness of fat women.

Men like Paul and Jon and Brian and yourself are clearly interested in making a difference.

PS--Thanks to anyone who appreciates my long-winded comments.

Richie, I guss I don't see a problem with you being attracted to fat chicks. I find a problem with people who find a problem with it. I also find a problem with people who take advantage of fat women, assuming that we are a) sluts because no one else will have us or that we will be so grateful for the attention we will settle for anything that breathes.

It does not sound like you are one of those people. It does sound like you are someone who has ALSO suffered from fat hatred, albeit not because of your own body size, but because of your attraction to a certain body size. I mean, the entire society we live in says: We should prefer thin people. And we don't consider that a problem, telling anyone who they should be attracted to. But all of a sudden when someone is attracted to someone outside of the "norm," then that person should be ashamed, harassed, humilated and denied the right to express their sexuality. This is also the basic premise of homophobia.

My partner, who has not dated exlusively fat people, does appreciate my body for what it is, its fatness, its softness, its fullness, and she is a thin person. I appreciate her for her unique and wonderful body, and she is a transman. She said a brilliant thing once: Society thinks we should be attracted to each other because no one else would find us attractive, not because we find each other attractive.

I want people like you in the movement, Richie. Everyone affiliated with fat people is going to be accused of something ridiculous about their reasons for wanting to defend to fat, which means, to me, that they must have a very, very salient purpose in the movement, otherwise, why would they be so very threatening to the average ordinary person?

First, thanks a lot for posting this, Paul. It’s excellent to see some discussion on this topic, esp from BFB. I was v cynical about the chances of seeing the issue directly addressed here, and I’m more than happy to be proven wrong.

I have definitely seen the “fat is the last acceptable prejudice” meme on BFB multiple times, and having that statement widely circulated and uncritically accepted as true makes for a *very* unwelcoming place for me, a queer black woman. The thing is, the societal ideals that make it acceptable to denigrate, discriminate against, and generally be hateful towards fat people are the *exact same ones* that perpetuate racism, sexism, and all the rest. Racism, sizism, etc are all intertwined and based on the idea that it’s right and acceptable to use systematic means of keeping groups of ‘undesireable’ people ‘in their place.’ The way to combat these social systems is to work on dismantling *all* of them, rather than implying that *your* oppression is more important than others’, simply because it affects *you*.

The reason that POC aren’t all that present in the FA movement isn’t because we don’t experience discrimination based on body size (even us black women, and yes, even from black men, thanks). It’s because the perpetuation of ideas like “fat is the last acceptable prejudice” and “black men like ‘thick’ women” are alienating and dismiss our experiences of sizism and racism not only as irrelevant, but as nonexistent. And it’s because on a post that’s meant to be about reaching out to POC, most of the comments (so far) ignore or barely touch on that issue!

Accepting that racism (and classism, and ablism, and transphobia, etc) is alive and well does not in any way lessen the need to address the appalling way our society treats fat people. Oppression is not a zero-sum game, and we all need to pull together. It is not enough to say “the movement should be open to everyone who cares about FA.” It’s a nice idea, but if the movement is going to be truly inclusive, there needs to be some active effort put in towards that end.

Thanks for all the supportive comments guys - they mean a great deal to me. This thread has certainly provided food for thought, which after all is why I come here. I know I have much to learn. That much is clear from the fact that I'd never thought of opposition to people who are attracted to fat people as another form of size oppression - but thoughtracer and Viola in particular make a compelling argument as to how criticism of 'admirers' is in fact an indirect way of telling fat people that they aren't worthy of being appreciated for what they are.

I guess I'm confused because so often I've heard fat women say they seek a partner who loves them in spite of their size and absolutely not because of it. And then there's the whole dynamic of fat people who are repulsed by their own appearance and ergo dismiss anyone who sees beauty in it as being themselves somehow deviant or threatening. A couple of newspaper columnists spring to mind, people who are all in favour of women's rights but who have stated their deep suspicions over any guy who is 'attracted to fat chicks'.

Further, we're told by many feminists that men shouldn't in any way objectify women's bodies, but then surely all forms of sexuality, particularly a preference for fat, involve some element of physical attraction, even though that's rarely the principal reason for being in a relationship with someone. It's just that no-one seems to question someone who prefers a tall partner, or a blonde one, or one of a particular ethnicity (though perhaps they should?) whereas everything to do with fat is considered somehow illegitimate and even shameful.

As to the issue of attracting fat guys to the movement, perhaps more could be done to engage with those like me who ARE genuinely attracted to fat people and because of that are compelled to action by the daily injustices we observe first and second-hand. Of course care would have to be taken to screen for those with ulterior motives but as sevendayswonder mentions, logic surely dictates that the last place the stereotypical predatory FA would end up is in a movement promoting full rights and acceptance for the very people whose oppression they currently exploit (especially when they have their own much larger and more prominent online space) and 'fakes' are generally easy to identify.

But I also think that as the pressure on fat guys to conform becomes more overt from both the aesthetically-oriented sections of the media and the (more compelling) medical establishment, increasing numbers will feel sufficiently threatened to seek redress through collective action. Ironically I wonder if the current intense focus on fat as a health issue for both genders in schools will result in a new generation growing up questioning this indoctrination, amongst them many guys. I just don't think it's reached the same level yet as it has with women.

Richie,

I can feel your frustration. I want to be sensitive to it, so please forgive me if I sound callous or condescending, because that is not my intent. I want to try to explain some things, as both a fat woman and a feminist.

Objectification is far different than sexual attraction. Objectification is the use of women's or men's or people's bodies in general to sell a product or idea or ideology. It is also used to oppress people, to keep them in place because of a perceived difference or "lesser" status due to sex, gender, race, class, etc. You see objectification in the way people are portrayed in ads. For instance, women are objectified as sex objects when an ad for perfume shows only the woman's legs, sexualizing the perfume by associating it with the legs of a thin, white woman, and dehumanizing the woman by not even showing the rest of her body or face. This is rampant in advertising and media in general. Compare print ads with men and woman. Often women are placed in hypersexual poses to hawk products, women of color are only shown in "exotic" clothing or locales, models are photographed with backdrops of lower income neighborhoods in high fashion/couture garb.

Objectification also happens in situations like street harassment, where a person, usually a woman, is dehumanized when another person, usually a male, yells at the woman by saying: "Nice ass," or "nice rack," or whatever, turning that woman into a set of body parts. As a woman who has experienced this type of harassment and objectification over and over, let me tell you how this feels: I feel powerless. I feel unsafe. I feel ashamed. I feel abused. I feel embarrassed. It is in no way empowering or loving or good. That type of interaction is about power, about subjugation. It is meant to put me in my place as a lesser.

Objectification, is, essentially, reducing a person into a set of body parts for the purpose of sexual gratification, denigration, or commerce.

Now. That being said, every single person on this planet is attracted to certain people for certain reasons. Some people are more visually attracted to certain body types, certain facial types, certain emotional types, certain intellectual types. This is pretty much biology, in a certain sense. We don't just get to decide who we are attracted to. If we did, probably a lot of people would stop being gay just because it would be easier; no one likes to just join an oppressed group for the hell of it.

Fat women do want partners who love them in spite of their size. But that is true of every person on this planet, I think. Everyone wants someone who loves them in spite of their physical appearance. Because we ALL are insecure about what we look like on the outside. We ALL want someone who will see past the exterior and take the time to get to know us internally. For fat women, who have been told for a long time that no one would ever, ever love us because of how we look, we can be especially untrusting of people who say: But I love you BECAUSE OF HOW YOU LOOK. It's kind of a mindfuck. It is for me. I constantly have to say: Yeah, but you like me also because I am smart, and funny, and because I am good to you, and I am stable and have a great work ethic, RIGHT? Because we've been told so long by parents, and doctors and the media, and everyone else in our life that our basic appearance makes us unloveable that a lot of us have built up an incredible defense mechanism to resist anyone who has ever said: I love you; YOU ARE HOT.

Add to that the emotional trauma of having had people who asked you out as a joke because you were the fat kid, and you've got kind of a maelstrom going on in your brain: No one can truly be attracted to me because I am fat, so they MUST like me because I am a super-good person, and so I am just going to tell everyone that I only tolerate people who SEE PAST MY FATNESS. BECAUSE IF WE BOTH AGREE MY FATNESS DOES NOT EXIST, THEN YOU WON'T STOP LOVING ME.

That has been my personal experience, anyway. I hope that helps.

Hello all......
As long as were talking about people who don't "belong" in the FA movement....let me bring up the issue of thin people. I know that FA has merged into more of a "size acceptance" format, so we need to go out of our way to include anyone who wants to be an ally.

Let me level with you-
I'm thin. Thin by the government "standards" anyway. Thin enough for people to try and force feed me.
Just like you, the size of my body is my own business. I could not forcible make myself fat, just like you could not forcibly make yourself thin. Still, people have thrown sandwiches at me and my coworkers make it a point to put the bowl of candy by my desk in the hopes of "fattening me up." Whenever I go out to eat, I hear people at neighboring tables talk about how I must simply vomit after every meal.
I am an outspoken advocate of the FA movement (Though I have yet to put up a blog on the topic). Like Paul, my motives are always questioned. I surely must be reading and posting on these sites to fuel some (nonexistant) eating disorder. I must be reading these sites to make myself feel better and superior.
The FA movement is a big tent (no pun intended) with room for everyone.

I can feel your frustration. I want to be sensitive to it, so please forgive me if I sound callous or condescending, because that is not my intent. I want to try to explain some things, as both a fat woman and a feminist

In no way did you come across as either; your post was genuinely helpful in helping me understand the distinction between legitimate sexual attraction and objectification. Maybe in future I won't be so quick to conflate the two in my own mind, and beat myself up for it. As I said, I'm here to learn. And at the risk of taking the thread even further off-topic, from what I know of feminist theory (in so far as there is 'a' single strand of feminism) I'm a supporter, and certainly not threatened by it as many men seem to be. I think it's a word that's acquired unnecessarily negative connotations due to the media concentration on certain extreme elements, much in the same way that coverage of fat acceptance has in the past been sensationalised by the inclusion of the feederism agenda. I do believe that in certain aspects of social life men - be they gay or straight - can be every bit as constrained by the inflexible expectations of their traditional gender role as women, that it's a two way thing and inextricably linked. I guess that's part of what you were saying earlier, that we too are pressured by society to fit into a certain mould, which includes who we are 'allowed' to find attractive. In fact there seems to be a great deal of overlap between fat acceptance and gender studies, with each useful in understanding the other.

Imagynne, as far as "prejudice" there are lots of prejudices that are accepted, at least within certain circles. In this particular case there is actual legal discrimination going on against fat people, which is where I draw the line. Prejudices are a lot trickier and require time and winning over people. Legal discrimination, however, must be stopped wherever it rears its ugly head. There are certain protections gay or black or what-have-you people have in place already to protect them from discrimination under the law; I should like to see ALL people have the same protections and be truly free and equal. The personal prejudices we can iron out over time, hopefully, though prejudice will probably always be with us. I don't mind at all standing up against those prejudices but when it gets to law, the situation is dire and has to be dealt with as top priority. IMO.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

Paul, I don't know you well or even at all but I am glad people like you have ideas and have places like this for us to gather
I believe we'll make a change, and we'll do it working together.
No matter where the fight goes, I'll follow

"One must want nothing to be different-not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not only bear what is necessary, but to love it."
Neitzche

Imagynne, your post was truly moving and I'm sorry to see that more people haven't responded to you.

You said:

Oppression is not a zero-sum game, and we all need to pull together. It is not enough to say “the movement should be open to everyone who cares about FA.” It’s a nice idea, but if the movement is going to be truly inclusive, there needs to be some active effort put in towards that end.

How can I respond, except to say Yes. You are so right. And it's time to talk about this.

I think that fat people who are feeling their pain validated publicly (as in a forum like this) for perhaps the first time, or are finding their voices regarding the beliefs they hold dear for perhaps the first time , can be quick to hold their oppression as something unassailable, in terms of fighting it and protecting their rights. And this, too often, leads to alienation of anyone who doesn't look or act exactly as they do.

This is the reason I tend to avoid the movement these days. I tend feel like I am too this or not enough that to be a "valid" activist. But I shouldn't stay away because doing do removes my particular flavor of activism from the group. And we need the strength, skills, and passions of all who want to fight.

By not being welcoming enough to all voices, by not working hard to validate the experiences of ALL people who feel denigrated and marginalized by sizeism, fatphobia, lookism - whatever we want to call it - the movement impoverishes itself.

So let's talk enrichment. What can we do? How do we improve?

I, personally, would really, really like to see men in the movement start writing about their experiences as men. I know there are several of you, and as awesome as you all are on the abstract, societal, non-personal stuff about fat acceptance, I want more of the personal stuff, the stuff about how this all affects you as men. This might be difficult, I know. Writing about personal stuff is not easy. But I think men writing about their experiences being fat men, or thin men, or men attracted to fat people -- will speak to other men who maybe have never heard of fat acceptance before. And it will help people like me to understand better where you're coming from.

I would also like to see more of the same from people of colour, if possible. I, frankly, am willing to shut up and listen to whatever other fat acceptance advocates have to say -- ESPECIALLY if they don't fit my own profile of 'white woman.' Because I've heard lots and lots and lots of the personal experiences of white women, and I think we've got it covered. So, I want to hear other voices, because I don't know what your experience is, and I feel like I don't know what I can do to help until I understand what life is like for you.

Racism, sizism, etc are all intertwined and based on the idea that it’s right and acceptable to use systematic means of keeping groups of ‘undesireable’ people ‘in their place.’ The way to combat these social systems is to work on dismantling *all* of them, rather than implying that *your* oppression is more important than others’, simply because it affects *you*.

This, imagynne, is the reason why I'm interested in fat acceptance. Because discrimination and marginalization of all different groups of people has common roots, and I would like to at least lend a hand in tearing those suckers out of the soil. I don't agree with the notion that certain oppressions trump other oppressions, but I do agree that there are shared factors at work. The experiences are different; but the mindset behind marginalization seems scarily similar.

Moderate the hell out of your blog if you have to. Just get your experiences on the screen for those of us who have no idea. Delete all the comments, or don't allow comments, or whatever. I'm not asking you to educate me, I'm not asking for the 101 lectures if you don't have the inclination, but I'm desperate to hear what life is like for you, how you interact with and interpret fat acceptance.

So, if anyone out there has toyed with the idea of writing something online about fat acceptance, but felt they didn't fit the profile for whatever reason, and were unwelcome, take this as a personal invitation from me to you. I want to read it. I will link it on my blog, and I will listen. Just, please, write.

What MichMurphy said. I will read, and link to on my blog. This is something that will educate me in areas that I don't have a clue about. I know how my fat affects me, and people like me, but how it affects men (well, I know how it affects DH) and how it affects POC, I don't have a clue, other than what I read. So yeah, blog about it, and if you don't want to deal with trolls and asshats, don't enable comments. If I want to comment on something you've written, I'll comment on my blog (with a link back to you).

it's all right to be crazy, just don't let it drive ya nuts!

Ok, Let me start by saying: Richie, I know exactly where your coming from with the disjointed and the incoherent. I decided I’d take some time to THINK about it and. . . . Well, THAT didn’t work. So, I figure historical narrative might be a good way to start, so here goes-

I’ve been involved with FA for a little over a year and, in that time, I think I’ve learned a few things. The first and most glaringly obvious to me at least is that I’m not as smart as I think I am. I mean, what’s really striking about this community is that there are, one helluva, lot of REALLY intelligent people running around in this thing. Intimidating? Yah! But once I managed to scramble past that looming barrier I found myself getting more than a little pissed. In the pleasingly loud, nihilistic, grind that is Rage Against the Machine’s ‘Freedom’ there is an uncharacteristic pause in the music where Zack de la Rocha whispers/growls “Anger is a gift.”. For me finding FA was a much needed gift. What was happening in this country, what the ‘Obesity Epidemic’ rhetoric represents, the attitudes, the behaviors it encourages. It mystifies me how people are totally incapable of seeing the hatred and pure venom that drips from every crevice. And it pissed me off when they tried to conceal it behind concerned benevolence. ‘We want to HELP you’ Yeah, ok then how’s about you FUCK OFF!. . . Still manages to spike the BP a tad, only now I guess I’ve learned what anyone who bangs their head against a wall for long enough does. You wake up dazed, seeing double, and realize; Ya know, there’s probably a better way to get through this. That door over there for example. . . Or the rope hanging over the top, or even picking a direction and walking for however long it takes to find an end you can turn around. Upside: walking is good exercise. So I started walking.

I suppose It’s time for me to get around to why I’ve stuck around FA for so long. Yah know, THAT is not a real easy question to answer (Hence the long trek previously rambled). Quick and dirty? I’m fat. Here we discuss issues that can and do effect me. But there aren’t a lot of guys involved n this thing, you say. Well. . . Yeah. I guess I, kinda, noticed that about the fourth month in. But I’m FAT. . . See? A lot of the things that effect fat women effect fat men too. Oh, I’m FULLY aware that for men, in many ways, the volume and intensity only ends up on 7 or 8 while for women it gets turned all the way up to 11. But you know what? A year ago, I DIDN’T. A year ago I might have said ‘Yeah it’s pretty bad for the Ladies, but it’s not gonna kill um, yah know?’ Ignorance being far from bliss, in this case ignorance, I think, could not really be used as an excuse. As I said, I KNEW, I guess in a way, I just wasn’t sensitized enough to really be aware. But I did LEARN and the more I learned the more I wanted to know.

Still, at the base of it, Fat IS different for men. As sevendayswonder observed, we are pretty much programmed NOT to think about our bodies. In a way we are taught that our bodies are just the containers we carry our thoughts around in. I think most men don’t think about their bodies until or unless they fail us in some way. Even then it’s usually couched in the terms of third-party failure. A trick knee, a bad back, a bum ticker. Not as if smoking three packs a day and eating pork for breakfast lunch and dinner or trying to pick up the WHOLE couch and move it by your self had anything to do with anything. Fat amongst men is generally a non-issue until one starts considering the Vs. aspect of the male mind. THEN it takes on a whole new paradigm. Fat = slow, fat = ungainly, fat = flabby and therefore, fat = weak. But, even this, is not necessarily so.

It may or may not be surprising to find out that I’ve never experienced REAL one-on-one, face-to-face, fat hatred. Being male, drilled in the importance of how One Carries Oneself from a tender age and , I suppose, having participated in sports in school probably factors in as well. I’m SURE that having my Old Man, over 250lbs at his lightest, as a drill sergeant is key. ‘Always look a person in the eye when your talking too them. Stand on your own two feet. Never be a Leaner.’ Even when I was pushing 450lbs I found myself uncomfortable leaning on ANYTHING and would, preferably, find someplace to just sit down first. The other thing is something I learned just out of high school. Whenever I was out with a friend of mine we would constantly end up being accosted by people asking directions, asking for information, or just for help with whatever. It wasn’t until one foray into Times Square on a New Years Night that we finally got a possible clue as to why. When two uniformed policemen trying to scrape three drunken idiots off the sidewalk turned to us and asked if we were ‘on the job’ and could we give them a hand, I realized then that people only see what their assumptions let them see and that assumptions can be influenced by what you PROJECT. We carried ourselves like cops so we must have been plain cloths. To this day I’ll get the occasional ‘nod’ from a passing cop. And, despite the fact that I’ve never been anywhere near a police academy, maybe there is a little cop in me somewhere’s. Because what I’ve read about here and on the blogs that orbit within the Fatosphere strikes me as just, plain, WRONG. Something that bares watching and need to be fixed. So I guess I’m just here providing a presence and making the rounds.

That DID wander and roam didn’t it? Hope I didn’t end up boring anyone into senselessness, but there it is. . . Whatever it is.

-DAILY AFFIRMATION:
>>Becoming aware of my character defects leads me to
the next step -- blaming my parents.<<

Big Fat Blog is the #1 reasons that two things happened in my life:

A) I stopped hating myself. I mean it! I totally stopped!

and...

B) I stopped fearing for my life.

I don't care WHAT people say about BFB or you, Paul. If your blog did not exist I'd still be living with fear and loathing towards myself.

Today I took another major step and blogged about my supposed "Morbid Obesity" on my own blog, complete with photos and weight. It's my attempt at opening people's eyes to the faces behind the "Obesity Epidemic." I never would have been brave enough to do that before 2006 which is when I discovered this blog.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! Tell everyone else that thinks you're in this for sex to go to hell. They are just scared that we fatties won't disapear.

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." ~Mother Teresa

Paul—I may be attributing the number of times I’ve seen the phrases from other FA blogs to BFB, which is unfair, and I apologize for it.

Annie—Racism and sexism are certainly embedded within our laws and legal discrimination on the basis of race and sexuality and gender expression goes on all the time. While you may feel that discrimination on the basis of size should be our ‘top priority,’ if you asked people who were both black and fat whether racism or sizism had a bigger influence in their lives, I think you would probably find that many of them have different priorities from you. Which is fine. But if the question is “How does the FA movement become more inclusive towards POC/queers/disabled folks?” the answer is not “Make the argument that sizism should be their top priority.”

Siamesemeg and MichMurphy—Thanks very much for your comments. I found this to be particularly pertinent:

By not being welcoming enough to all voices, by not working hard to validate the experiences of ALL people who feel denigrated and marginalized by sizeism, fatphobia, lookism - whatever we want to call it - the movement impoverishes itself.

I saw one response to the Fatshionista post that basically lambasted Tara for ‘infighting’ and ‘weakening the movement’ with her talk of race. The reality is that the more people that see the validity of FA and feel that the movement speaks to them, the better off we all are. I've been a member of BFB for almost four years now, and it's done an enormous amount for me. But I'm speaking as a queer WOC who has gnashed her teeth from time to time in frustration with the feeling that the movement just wasn't speaking *to me*--and yet I'm still here. I'm certainly not meaning to attack BFB or anyone with my comments--I just want BFB and the FA movement as a whole to be able to speak to others who may feel similarly (and who may not be as tenacious).

I'm having a hard time seeing how the FA movement is keeping people out on the sidelines. I've been lurking here since 2006 and I've never felt that way and I'm a Crow Indian/Black/White (a.k.a. total multi-racial!) heterosexual 100% conservative pro-life pregnant Catholic housewife who is *not* going to vote for Hilary or Obama. So...why am I not feeling left out and not welcome in the FA movement? Have I missed something?? I've always felt like a very welcome part of the FA movement regardless of my *personal* lifestyle choices, race, religion, etc and I can't understand why there is so much complaining going on about this very thing. I'm totally confused here!

(By the way, just because I *disagree* with things, I'm not anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-feminist, anti-career woman, anti-immodest dressers, anti-non-christian..etc, etc, etc.I don't judge people as long as they are not actually *hurting* someone. So don't worry, I'm not here to attack your lifestyles or thump the bible in your faces and I love you all for who you are, you beautiful wonderful fellow human beings!!)

Here I am, the perfect candidate for feeling left out and I read BOATLOADS of FA blogs that express tons of things I totally disagree with and/or do not address my specific races/religion/lifestyle choices and you know what? Big fat deal!!! We are all unique beautiful people! If any of us feels "left out" by the FA movement then maybe it's time to take a good hard look *within ourselves* at why that is instead of pointing fingers and blaming others for "not doing enough" to make (insert lifestyle/race here) feel welcome. At what point are your feelings of being "left out" the result of hypersensitivity and/or the desire for attention? Why is it so incredibly important for some of us to be recognized by a label? Everywhere I go I feel as if so many people are screaming, "I'm (insert label here)!! Did you hear that? Did anyone miss that? Because if you don't respond to my label I'm going to feel Officially Left Out and I'm going to kick up a fuss!" Why is it so important to be constantly identified as an (Insert Label Here) Person?? Fine, you're a Vegetarian. Fine, you're Gay. Fine, you're a Feminist. That's great! But that doesn't mean everyone *must* always identify you by your chosen label. You don't have to constantly cram your labels down everyone's throats. Everyone is multi-faceted like a beautiful jewel but it gets downright tiring having to constantly pander to each facet of each person or else risk making them feel left out!!! It's ok to just be known as a Person and it's not a attack against you when someone doesn't specifically address your labels!! If people in the FA movement aren't always including race, sexuality, religion, etc that's does *not* mean that you are being left out! It means that *fat* is what is being focused on at this moment in time. So put your hackles down and relax! You can remind everyone about your labels later on if you really feel that it is necessary.

If you are fat, you are fat. Why drag race and religion (or political identifiers, lifestyle, sexuality etc) into the equation and then complain that as a (insert race/lifestyle here) Fat Person you feel unwelcome and left out because there's not enough being said or done for your particular label. Besides, If you seriously feel that there is not enough being done for *your* particular race, religion, lifestyle in the FA movement then instead of waiting around for someone *else* to do all the work start moving and shaking and rocking the boat in the areas that you feel need to be brought into the spotlight! (But don't get huffy if everyone else doesn't have all of the time and energy to devote to all of your many facets. We are only human after all!!) Get cracking on your own blog about these particular threads and share links with other blogs and do what you think needs to be done to address your specific needs. Don't expect other People who do not identify with your particular labe(s) to go on and on about your unique facets. I'm not wailing and gnashing my teeth because folk aren't blogging about Fat Catholics or Fat Housewives or Fat Native Americans or Fat Farmwives. When I come here to BFB or I visit the other FA blogs I go there looking for answers to a lot of scary questions like the loss of my legal rights and my actual health risks as a Human Being. I also go there to enjoy a sense of espree de corps with fellow fat Human Beings who are also being tormented and discriminated against. YES, black/gay/pagan/Jewish/male/female/etc/etc/etc Peple are also discriminated against regardless of fat and we are not going to forget about that just because we focus, for a short time during each day, on fat discrimination. Is this another reason folk keep dragging race and religion and lifestyle into the "I'm feeling left out" argument? Are you afraid that we will forget about the living hell you have to endure in other areas of your life outside of Being Fat unless we are constantly reminded? I don't think so ~ you don't have to be gay or black or whatever to not know that severe prejudice against these people takes place on a minute-by-minute basis. So relax!! Your very real and dreadful sufferings for your race, religion, sexuality, etc, etc, are *not* going to be minimized or forgotten just because we focus on *fat* prejudice without also focusing on all the other disgusting prejudices at the same time. Give our collective brains a break! I'm sorry that not everyone can focus on everything all of the time! We don't always have to multi task! It's ok to focus on *one* thing now and then!

This brings up another question I have: If we are blogging and discussing issues pertaining to "being fat" why must we divide ourselves into sub-groups??? (I'm black and fat. I'm Jewish and fat. I'm gay and fat...) What good is it going to do the FA movement if we shatter into a thousand bickering shards and expend time and energy pointing at one another for "not doing enough" to make each shard feel totally 100% welcome everywhere else? Why can't we all just discuss what it's like to be FAT PEOPLE and let this be a FAT ACCEPTANCE MOVEMENT regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality etc etc etc?? It just gets to be too overwhelming if we don't focus on the issue at hand: Life As Fat Human Beings.

Besides, we are all People. We are all Human Beings. I don't even understand *why* we have Black People or White People or Fat People or Catholic People or Gay People or Vegan People or whatever other designation we give ourselves. Why can't we just all be *People*?? Isn't that what equality is all about? Haven't we been fighting to rid ourselves of labels and just be People??? So why do we insist on clinging to labels and shouting out to the world, "Look at me! I'm a (Insert Label Here) Person and if you don't take notice I'm going to feel left out and then I'll have to kick up a fuss!!" We can't have it both ways ~ we either fight for equality so that we are not discriminated against for your unique facets or we fight to be labeled. It's one or the other, my fellow People. You are either a Person or an (Insert Label Here) Person. You can't tell someone to be colour blind one minute and then beat them over the head because they failed to acknowledge you as Black. (Just one example...)

I hope we go back to being the FA movement that is about Surviving While Being Fat and quit all of this in-fighting about feeling "left out" because our specific labels are not being pandered to every second of every day on every blog and in every post. I don't know about you but my poor little brain can't DO that all of the time. I have to back off and focus on one thing sometimes. Does that automatically make me a racist or a bigot?? Or a mere human being with limited brains that can't focus on twenty things at a time?? For pity sake, have some mercy!!

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." ~Mother Teresa

Imagynne, for me, all forms of legal discrimination take top priority - if there are forms of discrimination that carry the force of law against people of color or gay people, etc. I'd certainly put that right on top with the rest of the discrimination. I think getting rid of legal discriminations should be top priority, whether they're against fat people or anyone else (I see a fair bit of discrimination against men in the law, and have definitely been involved in trying to fight that.) So please do point me to the legal discrimination going on, as I'd be interested in fighting that too. Though I don't know how this all relates to the OP, which was about men in the FA movement

FS: "I don't judge people as long as they are not actually *hurting* someone."

Ah, that's the ticket. One of the main things in being libertarian (which, by the way, being affiliated with an actual party is unfortunately not the best word, but at least people have an idea what it means.)

As to the rest of your post - wow. Well said.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley

The reason some of us label ourselves as being 'fat and (insert label here, in my case, queer)" is because there is no one universal 'fat experience' and any movement that wants to make a better world for all fat people need to know the nuances of what it means to be fat and gay, fat and latino, fat and muslim, and so on.

Believe, my life as a fat person is a lot different from many of your experiences, and one reason I don't post here as often as I used to is because I realize that I'm not interested in the same sorts of emancipatory gestures that many of you utilize in arguing for fat rights. Thats fine (and, in terms of tactics, a good thing), and if I didn't have other outlets for my own brand of fat activism, I probably would start a blog and speak about what fat rights means to me.

Think about it, if we didn't somehow rely on these labels in order to make meaning of our world (and that is a practice outside of all of our hands, it is how we create all societies), then we wouldn't be here talking about fat at all. Few places outside fat acceptance circles even consider fat an identity with the same status that they grant to race, gender, sexuality, ability, class, and so on, so it might seem incredibly disjointed and illogical to others that some of us just want to claim a 'fat identity' and that this hermetically sealed fat identity works just as well for a 62 year old man in Alberta as it does for a 14 year old woman in New Orleans.

The first step to change is to put that need into speech. What some of you might hear as complaining is actually the first step for change. I think that 'complaining' is entirely justified if someone is representing 'your experience' for you and getting it wrong. Those of us who are of certain races and/or sexualities and fat have seen a lot of this in our lifetimes, and we want to correct the errors while we show the alternatives and move forward to make things better for all fat people.