Shopping Discrimination

Interesting study. I would've liked to be a fly on the wall for some of those conversations. "Hello Random Salesperson. I'm looking for a birthday present. Have you seen my drink? I've just run a half marathon!"

LOL, Beanietude. I bet there were some odd conversations :) I can see why, for control's sake, they had to use the same women with and without fat suits, but I do wonder if it skewed the responses at all. A woman in a fat suit may well be more clumsy (through not being sure where her edges are) or self-conscious than a woman simply being her own natural size, and salesfolks could pick up on that. I did like the criteria they looked at, such as tone of voice and cutting off an exchange early. Those are the sorts of things that are hard to explain to someone who thinks you're just being defensive or paranoid. Interesting stuff.

As a former retail manager (never again...) I saw tons of prejudice, both subtle and not-so-subtle, displayed by retail employees. Basically, I'm sorry to say, at least in the company for which I worked, there was NO sensitivity training for employees re. dealing with customers. (We did require them to watch a video on sexual harrassment, but that was about it.) Part of the problem is that turnover is so high that meaningful employee development is virtually impossible. Unfortunately, that is because the pay and benefits are so bad. Retail organizations need to pay employees better and provide better benefits. Until they do that, the turnover rate is going to continue to be so high that it is virtually impossible to provide meaningful training in how to avoid letting one's own prejudices affect one's interactions with customers.

Interesting study. There are a lot of times when I get the impression that I'm being treated badly, yet I can't quite put my finger on it, and indeed wonder if it's simply my own insecurity. It's interesting to see that these people found all these subtle ways of discrimination that are hard to catch. I like the fact that they emphasized that it should not be our responsibility to reduce discrimination against ourselves (e.g., by dressing professionally or by mentioning that we are trying to lose weight), although I may try that diet soda trick some time!

I can't think of a group which isn't discriminated against whilst shopping except for perhaps professionally dressed, average weight, white men, but this was an eye-opening study. Interesting read. I wonder what the results would have been if black women were a part of the study.

I would have loved to have heard those exchanges too. How on earth does one broach the topic of never completing or conducting a half-marathon? I mean, I can see someone who did one talking about it-- most people I know do, usually because they've surprised themselves. But to bring up what one could never or would never do? Or did this person join in the conversation?

When I first began to notice how I wasn't being "noticed" in stores, I was told by my friends and husband that I was either being paranoid or did something myself in terms of body language to bring it on! But I had people watch how it happened and they were finally convinced. Even now I notice I'll walk into a store and get absolutely no eye contact. Then my husband will follow me in and suddenly they focus on him. When it's realized that we are together they will invariably then SEE me too. It's no wonder that so many women feel like they are nothing without a man. But I also wish they had used real fat women, even if they had to change people to do so. Diet soda, huh?

Not at all surprised. There's lots of subtle discrimination about EVERYTHING in stores. When I was in college, I had the experience of going shopping downtown one week dressed "professionally" (skirt, blouse and jacket) and the next week, "like a college student" (jeans and sweatshirt). I noticed a couple things: the people in the nicer shops were a lot more willing to talk to "professional" me. I got followed in one of the shops when I was dressed as "college" me. I guess they thought college girls were big shoplifters (hell, maybe they are. ALl I can say is I never was.) It left me with sort of a bad taste in my mouth about that one particular store - didn't shop there again. I will say, I think the best plan is to "vote with our feet" - if you get treated badly in a store, don't go back and let them know why. Conversely, if you're treated well, tell your friends and tell the store management why you are continuing to do business with them. That said, I do a lot of my shopping over the internet these days. I've had one too many situations where the salesclerk would not even break into her cell-phone conversation with her boyfriend to help me. And I don't think that had anything to do with how I was dressed or how I looked; I think she was just rude and would have treated anyone that way.

This is fascinating, and as for so many of the other commenters, it validates something I "felt" to be true, but could never seem to prove. If I had a couple of bucks for every snide "...have you tried Lane Bryant?" But ladies, let's not think that this means we must all shop dressed to the nines, with a diet soda in our hands. First, because as the article states "We do not believe and would not advocate that the burden of discrimination reduction should lie with its victims." We don't need to fit some stereotype of a "good" fat person in order to be treated fairly. Second, because I believe diet drinks add to the tyranny of the diet industry. Think about what walking around advertising the word "diet" says to the world. You may be a FA advocate who doesn't diet, but youíre walking around with your beveage broadcasting the message that ìIím dieting because Iím fat.î Let's do this instead: go into a store with your head held up high (!); assertively ask for help when you need it; expect to be treated well, and point out when you aren't; make eye contact - make yourself SEEN. "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

I've had many times where I had to say "excuse me" in increasingly louder tones until the sales person even realized I was there. The only place where people smile and are quick to help me is at my local grocery store, but I'm pretty sure that they have some kind of training - I notice that they are polite to everyone, and ask each and every person if they need help out. Not just ask the cursory "do you need help out", but start to take your cart and say, "let me help you out". I think they do that to help the people who do need help out feel less like a burdon. When I go to nice stores I'm always aware of the person watching me to make sure I don't shoplift (I wear a black, leather coat and so does my fiance, who has *gasp* long hair). I'm also always aware of the sales reps who look down their noses at me and think I don't deserve to shop in their store. Guess what - I don't. I deserve better. It's funny, I get treated better at Value Village than at the Bon Marche. A somewhat related story I have to share - My fiance went with his sister when she was car shopping one day. They went to this really nice dealership. She was planning on spending a lot of money. They enter the dealership, and talk only to my fiance. They completely ignore her, and whenever she asks a question, they direct the response at him. They do point out the features like the vanity mirrors and the cup holders to her, but when she asks to see the engine they show him the features of it (he knows nothing about engines). Finally, after wasting hours of this man's time, she explains that she is the one interested in buying a car, that they've been talking to her brother the whole time, who has no interest in making a purchase, and that she will never purchase a car there because of the way she was treated.

In her book, Mon'ique states that she won't deal with skinny sales clerks at Lane Bryant or other stores for large women. She tells a story about how she was looking for a nice, sexy dress and the clerk and a thin "friend" she was shopping with snickered at the idea that a fat women would want to wear something revealing. What I want to know is why do these women who mostly work for such low wages get off thinking that they're better than than most of the women who shop in their stores?

Just for kicks walk into American Eagle or Gap dressed as a fat Muslim young woman(I wear loose clothing and cover my head with a scarf). Let me tell you it is very interesting experience. I usually get the cursory "can I help you find anything" because I think they are required to ask that. Other than that I am on my own. I even remember one sales person talking about "that woman with the thing on her head" to the another sales person. I made a point of stopping and staring at them. People just can't seem to deal with what they are not used to seeing. Its good to know that I am not just paranoid pointing out sales people rushing to help my friend and me getting the cursory greeting. I also worked at a grocery store. It has a different environment overall. I always joke that food is one size fits all. And most grocery stores don't have a certain feel to it, like most other stores. kelebek }{

I like this concise explanation of how to curb discrimination: "by targeting and removing justifications for prejudice held by perceivers" It's a very clear statement of a primary goal for the fat acceptance movement.

You know, I never thought if I was treated differently for being fat. I was always treated like crap, and ignored, but I always chalk that up to the fact that at 23 I still look like a twelve year old. I either get too much attention, as they think I'm going to steal something, or I get no attention, as they assume I have no money. (My guess at least) I was in a furniture store the other day because we need a couch and they were going out of buisness and was curious how much on sale the things really were. Well, I walk in, I wonder the store looking, and nobody ever comes up to me, asks if I need help, anything. I noticed though that every other person that walked in was greeting with a hello and can I help you find something. Like usual. I think it would have been nice if they used real fat people too. (Don't tell me they couldn't find anyone...) I understand using the same person as kind of a control, but if you think about it, you can't use the same salesperson if you do that, since I think they might notice you randonly gained 70 pounds, and with having different salespeope your control is off. I would have done the experiment with people of more that one ethnicity for starters, but I would have had two, or ideally four, people who looked roughly the same, half "normal" sized and half fat. Then do the different attire and comments with the same salesperson. I think that would have better to use as a control, because there is less of a possibility of error on that. Midknyt

I used to have that problem getting treated weirdly because I look younger. A librarian actually yelled at me once for doing something I didn't do, and I can only assume she thought it was okay to yell at me because I was a kid. Except I was 22 and married. That sort of pissed me off. I was also treated really rudely in a high-end plus-size shop. I was actually looking around to find plus-size stores in my city for the first time, so I was jotting down notes in a small notebook. Just as I was writing "beautiful stuff," a salesclerk came up to me and demanded to know what I was writing. I told her that I was shopping around, and taking notes so that I wouldn't make any impulse purchases and would remember which shops to return to. Apparently she didn't believe me, because I was eyed suspiciously for the next 20 minutes I was in the store, until it became too uncomfortable to bear and I had to leave. Needless to say, I never shopped there again, despite their nice clothing! I think they thought I was an industry spy. But come on, what spy would so obviously be taking NOTES in a store?? I've always been treated well at Lane Bryant and Addition-Elle. I don't even go into 'normal'-sized stores anymore. If a smaller girlfriend invites me to go clothes shopping, I decline unless we make specific arrangements to go to shops that would fit us both. I've spent far too many afternoons wandering around pointlessly in shops where there's not an icicle's chance in hell of finding something I could wear.

I didn't know that Nordstroms had only one path for fat women's "Encore" section until I was looking for a cashmere sweater in one of the multitudinous other sections. The saleswoman looked slightly uncomfortable and said I might want to check in the Encore section. Then I said, "It's for my GRANDMOTHER!" As if I'm contaminating the small clothes section with my fat presence, as if I can't clearly see that those clothes are in smaller sizes, as if I'm going to try to squeeze my fat ass into clothes that are too small for me! Yes, they discriminate, and it's quite aggravating. Sometimes I try to tell myself I shouldn't care what some silly corporation thinks of me. Why wait for some male CEO to decide I'm worthy?

I don't know...I've been ignored in stores, but I've never felt it was because of my weight. I've felt discriminated against for my gender and for the clothes I was wearing, but I've never felt it was my weight. Hmm. VERY interesting study, however I agree with another poster about the fat suit. You CAN'T put a thin person in a fat suit and expect them to act just like a person who IS fat. There's a difference...a big one (no pun intended) and that just bugs me.

Last fall I had an experience something like blissings. I do most of my clothes shopping from catalogs or on the internet these days so I hadn't shopped in a department store much less a boutique for a long while. However, one of my nieces asked me to pick up a dress for her that she was having a shop hold. The shop was on my way home and so I said I would. Well, I walked in and before I got three feet inside the shop, one of the assistants leaped forward, blocking my way, and fairly shouted at me that they didn't carry clothing in my size. I was startled (to say the least) but kept walking forward. Well, it was like the Queen Mary bearing down on a dinghy so she didn't have much choice but to get out of the way. The manager came out at that point and I told her to get the dress they were holding for my niece. No problemo. (It was a $350 dress after all). On my way out I asked in a loud whisper did the silly bitch who had tried to keep me out of the store think that her precious size 2s were going to change into 22s if I brushed past them. Still, it was very weird...

MichMurphy, I know exactly how you feel about being with smaller girls, and having to wander about a store where nowt would fit you. The sales girls would look at me and smirk, or just plain ignore me. The first time I did it, it brought me to tears. I vowed NEVER to do it gain after the 2nd time, and I haven't. I told the mean srick thin bitch here NO!!! when she wanted to look at clothes in the mall. In the department stores, she STILL pointed out all the things that would fit her ]-:

I understand the concerns about the fat suit, and the questions regarding the lack of fat people participating. Were the thin people returning as the fat-suit people (or vice versa)? Was this a plan to rule out potential other factors so that one did not dispute the study? Just wondering. I have distinctly unpleasant memories regarding clothes shopping, and they were the ones that got me to thinking about fat hatred. I mean, shopkeepers were more interested in making a potential customer feel uncomfortable and unwelcome than making money? This goes against the basic impulses of capitalist culture! What happened to the interest in selling people stuff they don't need and could never use?

Great experiment! As a social psychologist, I read about this sort of research all the time. I know about statistical significance and how that allows researchers to decide if there is an effect or not, and how that is what editors use to decide if research gets published or not. I'm convinced by that research. However, I'm also convinced that Virginia needs to be concerned ("243 People in Virginia Overweight" story). Why? Because I also read a lot of that type of research, and it is based on the same statistical principles as this shopping discrimination story. It seems that you can't just pick and choose which statistics you want to believe (i.e., believe those that support your cause, disbelieve those that do not). Let the flaming begin! P.S. Lizzy, was your point that women are discriminated against when they go car shopping, or was your fiance's sister overweight? Because women being discriminated against during car shopping is old hat (and that needs to stop too).

Ah but please note, Amy, that I didn't speak to the survey size. In addition it's arguable that this study didn't go to any grand conclusions (ie, Virginia needs to be concerned.) And I've definitely pointed out study sizes in the past, even if they had a pro-fat message. No flaming here, just clarification. :)

Amy, My point about my fiancÈ's sister was that women are discriminated against - she's a tiny little thing. I know, it's a little off topic, but the fact they chose only women for this study because it's perceived that only women are treated differently based on size is why I brought it up.

If not surprised that there's a difference, on average. The worst case of discrimation I've seen is when I went shopping at a high end department store with a friend of mine who's black. She wanted to buy something and was completely invisible to the salespeople. She couldn't get anyone's attention. It was appalling. Neither one of us ever shopped at that store again. These days, salespeople tend to snap to attention when I'm shopping, even at stores that don't have clothes in my size. I've actually found out that a lot of boutiques will have larger sizes custom made because I've been approached by salespeople while checking out the styles. "Can I help you?" "Oh, I doubt it. I was just browsing. Your clothes are really cute, but I don't think you have my size." "Well, if we don't, we can have it made in your size, no extra charge." (Seriously - lots of places will do this, but you can't get the sale prices) My fiance likes to have me along when he shops, because he gets ignored and I get served (he's young-looking and kind of shy). I think it has to do with attitude and eye contact. I guess it's worth noting that I'm only slightly fat (size 16W).

Oops. Meant "I'm not surprised."

siamesemeg, I don't think a diet soda is really saying anything at all. If it is, in my case it is saying "I don't like sugar in my beverages."

Then why did the sales clerks in these stores treat the fat women carrying a diet soda differently? Because, as the study states, "...the perception that the latter group was making an effort to lose weight lowered the justification for discrimination against them." I respect your point, but maintain that carrying the word "diet" on your can of soda sends a message, intentional or not.

I think that part of fat acceptance is being able to be free to choose what we want to do without regard for how it is perceived by others. If people perceive me differently because I like diet soda, how is that my problem? I really don't plan on starting to drink sugary sodas which I do not like simply because someone may see me with a diet soda and assume I am dieting. This seems almost as disordered to me as hiding and eating food because you don't want anyone to see you eating it. I hope I don't sound angry here because that is not my intention.

Yes, we should be able to choose what we want to do regardless of our size, and I don't agree that it's anti FA to carry around a diet soda, although I do believe it's very unhealthy. If you've ever read about what aspertame does to you...ugh. I know, sugary sodas are bad for you too. That's why I try to drink more water, tea, and coffee (black on the tea and coffee - I prefer them that way). I even started drinking green tea, which I always disliked, because I do have a family history of diabetes and it can help regulate blood sugar, so I figure it's good to get a head start on that kind of stuff. What's my point again? Oh yeah, people do see large people carrying diet soda as trying to do something about it. But they also will observe someone drinking a diet soda and then *gasp* eating food as pathetic and desperate (I've heard comments to this effect). Really, just ignore what people think. Drink what you want to drink for the reasons you want to drink it.

Micki wrote: What I want to know is why do these women who mostly work for such low wages get off thinking that they're better than than most of the women who shop in their stores? Wow, this really stuck out in reading these comments. I really don't think that resorting to classism is a great way to fight size discrimination. I mean, really, do you actually think you're better than women who work in retail because you make more money than them? If so, you're making the same kind of broad, baseless assumptions that people are when they assume they're better than fat people.

elizabee, don't tell me you're not irritated when you have money to spend in a store and you're treated like dirt by some skinny teenager making minimum wage. I've worked in retail and my attitude is the customer's needs are more important than those of a rude employee's to feel superior.

I hate that the "diet" on the can posits (without my help) that I am on a weight-loss regimen. I hate it because when I opt to drink soda, I prefer the diet kind because sugar does crazy things to me, sending me into those frenzies where I might as well be running in circles with my skirt pulled over my head. And then I pass out. I have no interest in using the soda to lose weight and hate that people assume the reason for my drinking it. And so I don't so much. Micki-- I understand your concern over customer treatment and it's an important one. But as elizabee notes, there are ways to make that claim that do not partake in a problematic class system and denigrate those who are part of the customer service and retail industry. You refered to "women" in the first statement, and asked how "they got off thinking they're better..." which is a harshly stated way of making a point of the lack of courtesy and kindness-- here you seemed to articulate a hierarchy that was not being recognized where lowly minimum wage people are not recognizing their status (which is inevitably below yours as a customer). "Snotty teenagers," is of course, a welcome term although I may get called on for my agism. Again, what strikes me as intriguing is that the rude treatment tells us that the hatred towards fat people supercedes the desire to make money-- and that is one stunning preference in a capitalist society.

I am not putting people down who work in retail. I have done so myself. When I shop I treat sales people with courtesy, unless they act as if my money isn't good enough. Most retail sales personnel are female, at least in clothing stores, so I don't see how the word "women" was offensive. I don't see how some of these stores even make any money. There are more fat people than thin, but they act as they would rather we don't shop in their stores. Fine. They can go bankrupt. I'll spend my clothing dollars at Torrid, Astarte, b&lu, and other stores that treat me and other fat women like valued customers, not with contempt.

Micki, sorry I wasn't clear-- the word "women" in itself wasn't offensive, but it was interesting that in your explanation to lizabee, you changed the terminology from "women" to "teenagers." The point here was not to accuse you of anything, but to consider the way one can sometimes unintentionally express an opinion one does not have-- for example, a classist stance when what you very rightly note is a lack of common human courtesy. If there is such a thing.

I think the whole soda debate is pretty much moot, since in most clothing stores, you can't have food or drinks in them. I bought my first interview suit at Nordstrom's at the Mall of America when I was just out of college and was treated very professionally. So perhaps the one Nordstrom's sales person just had a rude personality. I do agree that sales people need better training in general, though.

MichMurphy, your story reminded me of when I used to hang out with a friend of mine (we haven't been in touch in a while so I don't know if she's still a friend or what)...she is a very small, thin person with small bones. I'm a size 14/16 and medium boned. I don't shop at boutiques, and she does. She wanted to go to some little store and I agreed, thinking, "Am I allowed in there?" The whole time she looked at clothing, I felt like an alien. I kept thinking an alarm would go off or someone would whisper, "What's SHE doing here? Doesn't she know she's not welcome?" I think I actually started talking in loud tones about how this or that would look good on a family member just so I could earn forgiveness for being there. As someone else said "contaminating" their store. Now, no one actually said anything to me, and I wonder if it's real or if I'm just paranoid!