Fat and Feminism

The media proclaims loudly that only thin women and tall, rich men deserve love, so is it any wonder that those who don't fit that description, no matter what their political and intellectual beliefs, will try to conform? Who wants to be alone and ignored, no matter what they say? The truth is there are over six billion people in the world and there is a good chance of finding a relationship with someone who loves you for who you are. A man who is in love with a liposuctioned, starved body is not worth your time. Every time I have tried to fit into "society" it has turned out badly. I have had to face the truth about myself: I'm fat and 46, not thin and 21; smart not dumb; Wiccan not Christian; in love with a guy who's short and bald, not a tall, rich, handsome movie star. I'm happier than I have ever been.

Well, "feminism" is not as monolithic as this author makes it out to be. She equates wanting to please men with heterosexuality. It certainly is a part of *cultural* heterosexuality (in other words, how to perform the role, as definied by the dominant culture, of a heterosexual female). But some strands of feminism have been working for a long time to redefine cultural heterosexuality, i.e., the culturally defined roles of both women and men interested in heterosexual relationships. There have been feminists since the early days of feminism who have declined to subject their bodies to various procedures in order to fit the cultural mold of femininity. Refusal to shave legs and armpits, refusal to wear high heels and girdles or corsets or panty hose (or skirts, for that matter), refusal to wear make-up or paint one's fingernails, refusal to participate in obsession about cellulite or "being fat" ... those have all been parts of heterosexual feminism for many decades already, at least some branches of it. Unfortunately, one of the problems heterosexual women who have engaged in those refusals have faced is that of being accused of being "man haters" or "lesbians" (or "crazy radicals"). This has often led to some good self-examination for those heterosexual women who've toughed it out: i.e., "what's wrong with being called a lesbian anyway?; hmmm, maybe there's another bigotry at work here thats intimately intertwined with this issue" (among other things). Unfortunately, some feminists have taken a different route, and have decided to perform their cultural "femininity" even more, in order to avoid being accused of being lesbians (a move that was vigorously opposed by some feminists all along). There have been numerous feminists who've written about "drag queens" and argued that essentially, most women are dressing in drag every single day when they get ready for work -- "dresing up as (culturally defined) women" instead of going as who they actually are. Often heterosexual feminists' outrage at being called lesbians (or "fat" or "unattractive" -- and being called "fat" and "unattractive" has been a piece of that all along) exceeded an objective amount of concern about correcting an unprejudiced, power-neutral mistake about one's sexuality -- leading some more astute heterosexual feminists to realize that they had some internalized homophobia of their own that needed a little head work... AND to realize that cultural homophobia was one of the issues that kept women (both heterosexual and otherwise) "in their place" -- i.e., continuing to devote their life energy and attention to "performing" culturally defined "femininity" instead of to inventing, innovating, creating, making policy, making money, or changing the world. Susie Orbach declared that "Fat is a Feminist Issue" decades ago -- and while I may not agree with her conclusions, she certainly identified a problem. The problem is (as usual) that women (and men) who resist culturally prescribed roles of "masculinity" and "femininity" (including heterosexual men and women who do so) are often marginalized and written off as "crazy" or "sick" or "depraved" or some other negative stereotype -- so what they say and do gets a lot less air time than what "culturally approved" people are saying and doing -- i.e., they are rendered inaudible and invisible. But they are out there, and have been all along. Its too bad that she chose to take on such an important and complex issue in such a simplistic overgeneralization about feminism. Well, that's my short answer. (note sarcasm) Some day maybe I'll give my longer response (heh heh - apologies for the length of this post).

How many people fit the cultural ideal anyway? Most of us aren't rich, thin, nor breathtakingly beautiful and shouldn't believe the lies that tell us there's something wrong with us if we aren't.

And of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Who ever dictated that painting one's face is supposed to constitute "beauty"? I happen to think people are beautiful with the face God gave them, without painting or botoxing it, etc., etc., etc.

The definition of "feminine" is so vague. If you go with the article's assumption that "femininity" is equivalent to a woman living for the male gaze (either directly or indirectly through assumption about men and the media), then yes, that's counter to feminism and maybe counter to the fat movement. But that's a really disempowering view of femininity; it feels like she just chose the word to refer to this male-gaze fixation she wanted to talk about, without thinking about its meaning. I tend to think of femininity as something much broader, like a diverse set of characteristics that are culturally feminine that people of any gender can possess in some degree. That doesn't inherently conflict with or support feminism; they're more or less unrelated, except that feminism kinda works to ensure "feminine" isn't devalued or idealised. I didn't get much from this article, but I have to say that calling Ensler's book "Navel Gazing" is a fabulously apt description - and one that speaks to the effect of fat phobia (turning the gaze inward and blaming the individual for societal non-problems) really well.

*Tsk.* Call me simple; my definition of "feminine" is anything that I do, since I am "female." That's anything and everything from cooking, dressmaking, cleaning, riding, shooting, fencing, roofing and wrestling, to name just a few. And my definition of "masculine" is anything that a "male" would do, which (as I ponder the men I know) just happens to include: cooking, dressmaking, cleaning, riding, shooting, fencing, roofing and wrestling, to name just a few. And if I'm going to paint, spackle and grout myself (and I do), it's so that I conform with my own idea of what is "beautiful," which, as it happens, is not the current standard. I don't see any need to conform my grooming to anyone else's expectation of either feminine or feminist; I've been a feminist all my life, and I long ago figured out that whatever I did, as a female, was therefore feminine (which would include whatever level or style of grooming I would choose).

The current "standard of beauty" - skeletal, stick-straight hair, and acting bitchy and/or dumb (probably because of malnutrition)- would be considered extremely undesirable in most other places and times. Survival depended on strong, substantial, tough, smart women who wouldn't blow away or wilt at the hint of adversity. Just watch some old movies. It wasn't so long ago that big, smart women like Mae West made movies where they didn't take any guff from anyone. In fact, one of her movies "Belle of the Nineties," features a scene with some nice fat chorus girls. Sure it was set in the 1890's, but try making a historically accurate movie now with fat people. I don't see what is so "feminine" about extremely thin women. They look like starving children.

Feminism is dead.

There is nowt inherently feminine about skeletal women. I wonder how and why society got to the point where a beautiful woman like Marilyn Monroe would now be 'obese', and would NEVER even get one starring role today. I know this girl who is genetically skeletal, and she lords it over everyone, and makes so much fun of anyone with even a little fat. She's insulted me so many times, I just want to throttle her. She was my friend in high school, when we could share clothes, but she's always been so shallow. When she saw me for the first time in years, the first thing she said was,'How'd you get so BIG??? I can't believe how big you are!!!' I cannot stand to be atround her, but my dad likes her. When she insults me, and it upsets me, he just tells me to go to the gym and lose the weight.

There is nowt inherently feminine about skeletal women. I wonder how and why society got to the point where a beautiful woman like Marilyn Monroe would now be 'obese', and would NEVER even get one starring role today. I know this girl who is genetically skeletal, and she lords it over everyone, and makes so much fun of anyone with even a little fat. She's insulted me so many times, I just want to throttle her. She was my friend in high school, when we could share clothes, but she's always been so shallow. When she saw me for the first time in years, the first thing she said was,'How'd you get so BIG??? I can't believe how big you are!!!' I cannot stand to be around her, but my dad likes her. When she insults me, and it upsets me, he just tells me to go to the gym and lose the weight.

Casey, I suggest reading Skinny Women are Evil by Mon'ique. Sure, it's not "politally correct," but it will boost your self-esteem and give you some ammunition to use against your former "friend." Besides she's probably just hungry. You'd be bitchy too.

I'm thin, and also a huge supporter of size acceptance. I think it's pretty problematic to see people being so spiteful towards thin women in a size acceptance forum. While I'm a bit heavier now, over the summer I was a size 4, and I didn't look like a starving child, and not every thin woman is always hungry and bitchy because of it, but thanks, Micki. Also, I've read Mo'nique's book, and it's extremely spiteful and bitter towards thin women--I would hardly call it a step in the right direction for size acceptance.

I speak from my own experience many years ago. I starved myself down to a size 12. Yeah, I know that's not extremely thin, but it's as far as my body would go. Sorry, Imagynne, I'm just really tired of thin women, and I get tired of so many men thinking they're a great prize. Size acceptance by a thin person is like a white person decrying racism. It's OK, but not the same as someone who is actually the target of hatred. Mon'ique is a comedienne, not a journalist. Nevertheless, reading her book made me feel like I deserve great clothes, a loving relationship, and everything else I want. Even she admits in the book that "not every skinny woman is evil," just a large number of them.

Micki, I'll have to check out that book (: I don't know if she's hungry, she's genetically skeletal. BUT, she is one of the shallowest, appearence obsessed ppl I've ever known. Dad took un to the store the other day, and she saw a woman with eyebrows she didn't like. Among other things, she said, 'I wouldn't be surprised if before the end of the day someone hander her a mirror, and said Lady your eyebrows look like crap, and showed her how to do them right.' She says all of her exes just can't get over her. She even said about one, 'He just couldn't have me, so he married someone with my name, but she's FAT.' There's also this guy that likes her, and he accepts all kinds of gifts from him, but makes fun of him behind his back, like, 'But he's HEAVY!!!' I don't know WHY my dad likes this bitch so much. He makes all kinds of excuses for her, and I'm tired of it.

Imagynne, maybe we wouldn't be so 'spiteful' if so many ppl were not hateful towards us EVERY DAY. Why come to this one place to say that, when the rest of the world practically worships your size? We only have this one place to speak our piece. I'm sorry if I'm being mean, but I agree with Micki, I'm just tired of the costant message of thin being everything. No, not every thin person is evil, but there's so many we just get fed up. Wot if EVERY DAY, EVERYWHERE you went, you were made to feel ppl would rather see you disappear than be happy? They make you feel you're not even allowed to LIVE, much less have nice clothes or enjoy things. The 'Net, the telly, the stores, movies, restaurants, airplanes, everywhere. You'd be pretty upset, I imagine. That's wot it's like for us. Everyone from kids on the street shouting epithets, to doctors prescribing dangerous surgeries and drugs to make us look a certain way. This is place is our refuge.

Oops, I meant SHE accepts all kinds of gifts, not he.

I've also been thin, I was a size 1 until the age of 20. Let me tell you, I've not heard so much hateful crap as I have since I've been big.

Thanks Casey. I don't hate thin women, I just am tired of their superior attitude. One hundred years ago, they would have been the ones ridiculed, and we would have been the ideal. Basing your self-esteem on what is in fashion at the moment is ridiculous. You have to work with what you've got and not let anyone put you down. We have to all stop letting anyone victimize us and speak up. We have the right to wear beautiful clothes. We have the right to loving relationships. We have the right to great jobs. We have the right to be respected as people.

I don't hate them, either, per se. I'm also tired of their superior attitude.

in the rapheliate era.. consumptive women , aka skinny, aka sticks, were considered to be at deaths door.. and big women were healthier, and had a lot of admirers.. now i lost a good friend to losing weight, she was fine , a good size, she was fun lively, life of the party.. until someone persuaded her into dieting, then her personality changed , she became a self obsessed person, who wanted to change everyone into a skinny person, i am happy, with my size, she didnt like it. so she became an ex friend that aside.. a lot of us have been bullied, insulted, even physically attacked for our size.. now, nice is nice, and nasty is nasty, that person is plain nasty, it just so happens she is a stick thin person. i have a few skinny friends, but they dont take the nastiness to her extreme. we need books, to boost out self image, which we have a relatively low due to the fact that so called skinny is so called beautiful.. she is judging casey, and you if she met you, by her own standards.. she may think u are too fat imagyne.. and do constant sniping at you.. its not just a size acceptence site, its a FAT acceptance, she doesnt accept people as being worthwhile due to their size. we all have stories about people bullying us, some are heart breaking, and it happens that many of the causes of the pain are made by "thin" people. so you can(or should) understand our feelings.

I agree 100%, Love.

Casey and Micki-- While I realize that this site is titled "Big Fat Blog," I was under the impression that most of us here were working towards size acceptance, which means acceptance of *all* sizes. If I'm wrong, well... I'll just keep fighting for my version of size acceptance, regardless. I'd also like to point out that it's not only fat women that are hurt by today's beauty standards, which is why I feel that it's important to stand together to speak against them. I think that if you're angry (and there's plenty of reasons to be angry--I think we all know that), the best place to direct that anger is towards the media, society, and people that uphold unrealistic, damaging beauty standards, rather than women who are trying to fight beside you, but happen to be born with a body type that they couldn't help any more than you could help yours. To respond to you, Casey, when you asked why I came to this one place to say what I did--I realize that I'm not a very loud voice here, but I've been watching and commenting and reading BFB for almost 2 years now. I read almost everything that's posted here, even if I mostly lurk. It's not as if I just randomly came here to post that one comment. This site is a refuge for me, too, even if it wasn't created for women like me. It's a place that tells *everyone* that their body types are okay. And it's comforting. From the FAQ: Fat acceptance is an issue that has wide-reaching implications, and it may be considered an issue of equality and civil rights to some. BFB welcomes people of all shapes and sizes. (I'm going to hope that the tag will work--I don't know that it will.) In response to you, Mercurior--if she met you, by her own standards.. she may think u are too fat imagyne.. and do constant sniping at you.. its not just a size acceptence site, its a FAT acceptance, she doesnt accept people as being worthwhile due to their size. That's exactly my point. Not accepting someone due to their size is a problem. You're saying so yourself. And I do understand your position, I understand how being the victim of oppression and hatred and ridicule can cause you to act spiteful towards someone that you perceive to be in the oppressive category, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to think that being spiteful towards think people is okay. IOW, because someone was mean to you doesn't mean you should be mean to other people. As for what you said, Micki, about a white person decrying racism--to me, that's extremely laudable. It means they *get it*. It's easy for someone who doesn't suffer under a certain oppression to be dismissive and not care about it. For someone who's not the victim of racism and yet goes out of their way to fight against it, I think, is commendable.

Micki, Casey, Imagynne: It's a good comparison; remember, that in 1964, when three civil rights activists were murdered in Mississippi, one - John Chaney - was black; the other two, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner, were white. And I'm with Imagynne; I've always thought that the goal was size acceptance - so that it wouldn't matter if someone was fat. OR thin. Because size would no longer be the sole criterion of how someone was judged. I don't assume someone is starving if he or she is very thin; there are other physical signs of starvationwhich make it pretty evident. I don't even assume that a thin woman is a bitch, until proved otherwise. I do try to (gently) educate those friends of mine who are naturally thin, that it doesn't automatically grant them some kind of moral superiority over someone who doesn't have their genes. I've been the woman who was a size 4; I've been the girl and the teenager who was tormented for being fat. I've been just as bitter about the people who congratulated me on the weight loss, which was a side effect of some pretty punishing physical activity, as I was about the people who made my life miserable when I was heavier. I was the same person, at all those different weights; why did one size make me any more worthy than another? This place has always felt like a haven, since I discovered it; I'd hate to feel I needed to meet a particular height/weight standard in order to come here. I'd hate to feel I wasn't entitled to acceptance because I "wasn't fat enough." Am I better now because I'm not a size 4? Believe me, there were still plenty of size- and appearance-related issues at size 4. Yes, it's hard not to resent the people who have more of whatever society says is beautiful at the moment: blonde hair, if yours happens to be black, curly hair, if yours happens to be straight, people with tans, if you're fair-skinned, people who are white, if you face prejudice because you're not, heck, people who are young, if you happen to be getting older. In my case, at least, there are a lot of people who have lots of things I don't, but it's way too much work to hate them all because of it. My goal is pretty straightforward: I want to be left in peace to live my life, and I also want other people left in peace to live their lives. I like to think that the people at BFB measure their allies by what's in their hearts, and not on their scales.

Oh, and Casey: feel free to tell your "friend" that she's shallow, petty and annoying, every time she makes a comment you feel is shallow, petty and annoying. Maybe she'll stop hanging around making your life miserable. Then you can tell your Dad, "Look! I lost 100 pound of ugliness!" When he looks at you and says how, you can cheerfully reply that that creepy little bitch won't be coming around any more.

Dolley--Thank you, thank you so much. You said just want I wanted to-and much more eloquently. Casey, Mercurior, and Micki are three of the most prominent voices here, and I was starting to think that if they weren't happy with people who weren't fat enough being here, then maybe I shouldn't be. So it's reassuring to hear you say otherwise.

Imagynne, you are part of the vital Fifth Column; I regret to say that, at least at the moment, people of "average" or "less-than-average" weight tend to give more ... um, weight to Size Acceptance philosphy when people who are also of "average" or "less-than-average" weight are supporting it. It's harder for bigots to ignore people who are their size who are saying, "It's wrong to discriminate just because people are fat!" I don't forget that women would never have gotten the vote in this country if there weren't decent men who voted for what was right. I don't forget that blacks would never have gotten the vote in this country if there weren't whites who voted for what was right. Friendship comes in all sizes. I do understand the bitterness that Casey, Micki, Mercurior and countless others feel; I have enough to last a couple of lifetimes. I have enough that sometimes it feels as if it's choking me. It's an understandable reaction, and an easy one, to lash out at anonymous other people who seem to embody the unattainable ideal, especially if they were born that way. But I try to remember that they didn't do it just to make my life miserable. Instead, I try to save up all that venom and spite. And I don't hesitate to unleash it with both barrels when it's been merited. Parents in the grocery store, little kids, strangers on the street, well-meaning or idiotic co-workers - THEN I let loose! Aimed fire is so much more effective. :)

I'll say it again - I don't hate thin women, I'm just tired of women who think thinness makes them better. I know that thin women are also told to diet also and a lot of times their men give them a harder time if they gain weight than ours do. I would like to see women of all colors, shapes, and ages portrayed as attractive in the media, not just light-skinned, thin, young ones. I never thought of myself as a "prominent" voice here or anywhere else. Thanks Imagyne.

I wish I could tell that girl to clear off. Dad likes her, keeps making excuses for her, keeps buying her things. I'm SO FED UP. She is a VERY shallow, hateful user, who has not grown past the mentality she had when we were 15. I guess it's part of the reason I'm so angry these days. If I were to chase her off, Dad would be mad at ME. This kills me. He tells me to go to gym when she insults my weight. Everyday, I have to hear about excersizing, and getting THIN again. I'm now literally getting physically ill from all the stress here. My stomach has been so bad, I'm so tense, and I can't sleep. I don't mean to jump on ppl, Imagynne, I guess I was thinking your size IS accepted, even sort of worshipped, so I wondered wot point you were trying to make. I was rememberering when I was thin, ppl were so nice to me, when I got big those same ppl ignored or hurt me. It opened up a huge world of pain I had never before known, and I HAD known other types of pain. I'm not insulting anyone, just trying to explain my probably warped thought process. Me Prominent, fancy that (: Thank you, Imagynne. We do accept all sizes here. I've just got so much negative energy towards me in my life, cos of my size, that it clouds me sometimes where it shouldn't.

Casey, I really feel for you. You're obviously caught in a complex and, I have to say, unwholesome-seeming relationship. Your Dad buys things for your "friend" to keep her around? Ewwwwwwww! I have to say, to the outside eye, that's subject to some pretty unappetizing interpretation. I don't want to make matters worse, and I obviously don't know all the details, but some questions, which only you can answer, are: Will it be worse for you if your Dad is "mad" at you? He's obviously making your life unlivable, he and this tacky, unwholesome bitch between them. Is it possible for you to acknowledge the reality of the situation and withdraw yourself from, at least some of it? If Tacky Unwholesomebitch comes to call, can you holler to your father, "Dad! Tacky Unwholesomebitch is here to see you!" and go off about your own business without either of them? If he rides you about your weight, can you say, "I'm happy with myself as I am. I'm not interested in meeting your idea of what's sexually appealling." Because, quite frankly, ewwwwwww. And that really is the frisson that comes across. It's clear that whatever else, T. U. is not your friend, she's your father's - to put it no higher. I'm here to tell you, you are not required to subject yourself to that kind of indignity - or any kind! - any longer.

Just from what you say, Casey, the situation does seem strange. You are certainly old enough to choose your own friends, and I suggest you start hanging out with people who treat you with respect, even if you have to distance yourself from your dad or even move out if you're living with him. Most parents idealize their own children, not collaborate with someone else's child to put them down. I used to be thinner also, but I don't let anyone put me down. My mom also rags on fat people, although she's kinda fat herself. She doesn't come out and say anything negative directly to me, although she probably thinks it. Maybe it's easier to blow people off when you're older and see that most people get fatter when they get older. It also becomes more clear that size and appearance are secondary to character and personality.

Thanx Dolley & Mickey. From wot I know TU doesn't do owt sexual with my dad. I know she's not my friend anymore. We were friends in high school, and now that I think about it, she was no fiend I'd want to keep anymore. Dad was the one that starting talking to her years later. He goes and sees her by himself mostly. I used to go with him, but when I got to the point I wanted to throttle her cos of her insults, I told him I wouldn't go with him to see her anymore. He sees her every day. As we know, she really not my dad's friend, either, she's just using him. I've calmly discussed, ranted and raved, even made her talk too much in front of him to try to get the point across how she really is, but he just doesn't listen. One time, when we all went somewhere, and my dad had to go get summat, she told me that he hated having me go with them, and that his mood was so much better when I'm not there. She said she begged for me to go along everytime so he wouldn't try to kiss her. I told my dad wot she said that night. The next day, he tells me SHE'S kissing him, and I believe it. She probably realised that I'd tell him, and she got scared of losing all the free stuff. There's also this other guy she uses, the one she says is so fat behind his back. I know she talks about my dad, too, cos that's the way she is. I just can't get my dad to realise how she is. My dad wanted her to be his GF, and she didn't have the guts to tell him no herself, and instead told me. She told me that her first priority in a man is lots of money to take care of her, and her kids. She wears nowt but designer clothes, and spends so much money on beauty stuff, like a tiny $12 bottle of hair conditioner. She has 2 kids, no job, and lives with her dad, so I don't know how she gets the money. No telling how many guys she's using. My dad does really like thin women. He was so proud of me when I was young, thin, and pretty. I think I really disappointed him when I got big.