Vacation
I'm going on vacation starting this week. As a result, new users will not be able to join BFB right away. I appreciate your patience.
Please view this full entry for a few community-related issues I'd like everyone to discuss.
As you might've noticed, there is a small number of people on BFB who cause issues with trolling. Honestly many of the comments from these people are deleted as soon as I become aware of them, and the quality of general troll commenting has gotten worlds better since registration was enforced.
Not everyone who simply disagrees with viewpoints on BFB, or a particular poster, is a troll. That would be a broad brush. But there are some specific things outlined in the Guidelines and FAQ that many of these same people don't follow. I am, frankly, tired of the bickering that comes up when a select few people post or are simply referenced in a post. That's why I've taken the action of disabling a few user accounts.
In addition, not everyone at BFB can or does share the same definition of fat acceptance. We disagree on what causes it. We disagree on why it's here. But I do hope we all have a common goal, and that's to end fat discrimination. (Right?)
BFB is still at an interesting point in the movement. It's totally accessible and available to those outside the movement, and those who aren't familiar with fat rights. BFB needs to be welcoming to those people. In addition, though, BFB needs to look to the greater fat rights community and respect those individuals too.
It's a balancing act, albeit a tough one. I want to say that I may make some decisions that not everyone will agree with, and I may make some that will really annoy everyone. I do want your input on things, so feel free to comment here or via email.
The first thing I'm considering doing is adding a required registration question. The idea is to simply ask people why they feel they want to be a part of the BFB community, and what they can contribute. There've been a slew of quickie registrations that people have been trying to sneak in, not realizing that approval of registration isn't instant. Most of these people have things in their profile such as "I AM FAT I LIKE TO EAT" or something similarly inane.
The question would help to put more of a personality and interest behind each person's username. The biography is optional, and not many people use it.
What are your thoughts on this?
More on Alton Brown | Fighting Fat by Design
Posted by paul on May 17, 2004| frykitty |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
What a fantastic idea. The
What a fantastic idea. The question could be something with no "right" answer, even. Just a chance for someone to say something. Perhaps the question should be a little provocative?
I'll have to think about this. Er, and maybe I should go update my bio (which I don't think I'm using)...
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| jportnick |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Paul, as the moderator of
Paul, as the moderator of the NAAFA boards I know what a challenge it can be dealing fairly with posters from all walks of life. Honestly, I think you're doing an outstanding job here. I thank you for all that you contribute through this site and otherwise.
The bio info would be a nice addition. We use it on NAAFA and it can be a good indicator of what a poster is all about.
Whatever you decide to do, I support you. Thanks again.
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| michelle |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
I think I would do the same
I think I would do the same thing; it still leaves the blog open for everyone to read but saves participation for those more likely to add constructive comments. I hope I did not fan the flames by talking about "causes" in the Alton post : / sorry
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| Kell |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
The primary way to
The primary way to discourage abusers of any online system is to make sure they don't get exposure. I'd prefer to see a delay in the posting of comments until after they've been reviewed and approved. The main task would be to keep comments that obviously are trying to debate fat acceptance (instead of taking it as a given), or obvious troll attacks like we've just seen, whether against boards or individuals.
This would require assembling volunteers to handle the screening, agreement upon what points are not up for debate (which could be an interesting enterprise), and setting up procedures for "iffy" posts.
If I had my absolute druthers, posting would be by invitation only, so that we could avoid seeing the same clueless, anecdotal remarks or beginner's misunderstandings. Fat!So? and NAAFA are available for casual look-ins to post the same old questions and repetitive remarks, and having yet another venue dedicated to neophytes isn't necessary. And, having a closed panel of qualified posters & commenters is a very common blog format, and results in a far, far higher level of more useful discussion -- more like a Book TV discussion or a Fred Friendly seminar, than yet another series of explanations of the same old FAQ answers. (This also solves the troll problem in a different way.)
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| paul |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
I've gotta admit, I'm not
I've gotta admit, I'm not nuts about the idea of moderation. I think that sets way too high a barrier for people who are interested in participating. I think that a little more may need to be done (as in my original suggestion) but moderation is pretty drastic. I don't feel that things are at a level of discourse here as, say, when soc.support.fat-acceptance added moderation. That Usenet group was getting killed by trolls.
Perhaps what is needed is a better primer for fat acceptance, something that will answer all of the common questions? Maybe those questions can be in Discussion format, and BFBers can answer them?
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| shryve |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Hi
I disagree with comments
Hi
I disagree with comments made here about Fatso, I find that the subjects discussed there are the most diverse in Fat Acceptance, because the direction of the subject topics is open to the membership to create and change and Fatso does not have the insulated membership of NAAFA or the segregated gender areas.
I find both BFB and Fatso a breath of fresh air compared to the atmosphere at most of NAAFA. From the start BFB has been open to new ideas and Fatso has shown the ability to grow and change with the changing population of the Fat Acceptance Community.
William
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| jportnick |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
I'd like to clarify
I'd like to clarify something. I am not THE moderator of the NAAFA boards, I am a team leader of a group of people who moderate the boards. Just want to make sure I am clear that it's not a one person show over there.:)
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| jportnick |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
P.S. I would be willing to
P.S. I would be willing to help with a primer on fat acceptance.
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| Kell |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
And, so far, this
And, so far, this conversation has been polluted by two trolls. Again. And again. And again.
This is sickening. And people are still being murdered by the latest wave of white coat Nazis. And we're being persecuted, our jobs are being threatened, and access to society limited. We're hated and reviled and ridiculed everywhere, and meanwhile this conversation stays stuck in the troll land games about "no right answer" and "letting in new ideas" like hating fat people is just A-OK, and what Fat Acceptance really is.
This is sickening. Absolutely sickening.
Don't y'all get it? That we're going to keep "talking" and "having diverse conversations" and telling each other we don't really "know" anything (enough to fight back, to fight for our lives) right up until they start killing us in earnest, start denying us employment and insurance and housing unless we agree to swallow their poisons or be cut open for profit. The fattest people in our society, are already being sacrified and tortured and dehumanized. While we're having the oh-so-safe, worthless, sickeningly cowardly chats with the "no right answer" trolls.
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| Kell |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
And, by the way, fuck
And, by the way, fuck "primers". We did the primer forty years ago. The words you're looking for are "manifesto" and "list of demands".
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| paul |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Preface: I'm not on vacation
Preface: I'm not on vacation just yet.
Kell: And, so far, this conversation has been polluted by two trolls. Again. And again. And again.
Uhm, where, exactly? I know and have spoken individually with everyone who has posted a comment thus far, and they aren't trolls. Unless you define trolls as people who don't totally agree with you?
Kell, one thing to keep in mind is that this site isn't strictly viewed by people with your level of interest in fat acceptance. It varies. Some have more, some have less, some have none and are just finding out about it. Some are finding us via NAAFA. Some via Salon. Some via MetaFilter. Some via Wendy Shanker's book.
I don't want BFB to become a hostile environment for anyone who wants to participate. I don't think I need to start turning people away who are new to the idea, or are open to it. That would just be silly.
I still maintain that a primer is necessary because of people who are new to the movement. If we don't get any new people, as moderation might encourage, then we get the same five conversations in a row with the same five people commenting on them. I'm open to hearing new ideas, and as long as they're within the realm of fat acceptance, that's cool. And that should be encouraged.
William's note of an "insulated" membership at NAAFA is something I don't want at BFB, really. I do want to keep out honest-to-goodness trolls, and people who come here just to hate. But, you know, there've been a slew of young, teenage girls of all sizes who have signed up here. They're open to the idea, reading about it, and commenting. I can't see how that's a bad thing.
While we're having the oh-so-safe, worthless, sickeningly cowardly chats with the "no right answer" trolls.
By the way, that statement (along with a later comment of yours on the Alton post) puts me in the group of trolls. That's a label I don't appreciate, but if it's just a way of chopping down people who don't agree with you, so be it.
As I said at the outset, there will be some decisions that everyone agrees with, and there will be some that really annoy everyone.
I want to hear from other BFBers on this.
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| jportnick |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
It's a hard balance to
It's a hard balance to strike, the one between keeping out the bad guys and keeping out people who don't agree with you. Sometimes they're one in the same, other times not. Personally, I'd prefer to err on the side of letting people participate even if they don't agree and are sometimes less than charitable in their disagreement. But that's just me.
I think the overall tenor of this site is very positive. I appreciate seeing postings from old timers (I suppose I fall into that category?) and others I've never heard of before but who make fascinating points. Yes, there are going to be a few people who are mostly interested in arguing, but that is pretty rare here compared to the rest of the on-line world. At least, as I see it it is.
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| frykitty |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Perhaps a choice of
Perhaps a choice of questions would be well suited to the purpose. Say, three questions, and they can answer at least one. Suggestions:
How did you learn about fat acceptance?
What are your personal experiences with fat discrimination?
Was there one thing that made you realize that maybe the message the media sends about fat wasn't true?
What was/is your own journey toward acceptance like?
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| Fatshadow |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
I think youÃÂÂre very
I think youÃÂÂre very generous to ask for everyoneÃÂÂs opinion, Paul. Because you do the work.
If BFB is a community of like-minded fat radicals then the rules might be one thing. But it seems that youÃÂÂve always wanted BFB to be an opportunity for education. And I like that. It does get frustrating dealing with the circular nature of some conversations. But I think thatÃÂÂs how we grow. Honestly, I donÃÂÂt always have the patience for it and when I donÃÂÂt I just click away.
IÃÂÂm loath to think in terms of censorship. I think itÃÂÂs important to be able to engage opinions that arenÃÂÂt in accord with your own. But it does wear me out. And there are times when I donÃÂÂt have the energy.
Which brings me back to the fact that you do the chop wood carry water work of BFB. I think you get to decide how much youÃÂÂre willing to deal with and what tone you want to take. I think the world certainly needs a place where the issues of the fat community can be discussed. And I think we are all in a different place. I donÃÂÂt want people to feel like they canÃÂÂt say something less than radical around me. And I want them to know that if they do IÃÂÂm going to want to talk about it.
IÃÂÂm glad that registering made things easier and if asking a question would make things easier then itÃÂÂs worth a try.
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| Kell |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Apparently, I'm one of the
Apparently, I'm one of the few people who remembers that "William" is pro-diet, and everytime "he" says "open-minded" or "accepting", "he" means "let the dieters in". In other words, dillute fat acceptance until it's just another TOPS meeting.
Meanwhile, I don't know what your purpose here is, Paul. It sounds like, despite the talk of statements and Fat Acceptance as a movement, all you want to do is have a long ongoing, online conversation.
Fine, but why even mention Fat Acceptance in the FAQ, etc. if the purpose of the blog is only a general discussion of fatness, aka. morbid obesity aka. being overweight, with no political positions required? If this blog were dedicated to fat acceptance, "William" for instance would have been thrown out long ago, because "he" consistent argues for including dieters even though dieters are pursuing are directly, by definition, enemies of fat acceptance. It looks from here like you're trying to do at least two things at once -- not piss off or insult or frighten away or CHALLENGE the dieters and oh-so-polite "but don't you think..." fat bashers and sabateurs and trolls and lazy, anecdote-stuck, permanent neophytes who think they can do this without cracking a book, but also be involved in Fat Acceptance as a political movement. You can't have it both ways.
And the "no right answer" business is about cowardice, and sabatage the Movement. There are very much "right" answers regarding fatness -- lots of them, and they've been around in some cases for over a hundred years. As just the latest example, saying "fatness is genetic" is correct in exactly the same way as saying height is genetic, and all the dweebing, yes but, exceptions (all of which apply to height) is just paving the way for the fat bashers, and keeping the argument at a level of perpetual stupidity that will keep any change, especially any change requiring courage and risk, from ever happening. I repeat, that attitude makes me sick.
And, yes, I will call out and disparage and reveal and name "people who disagree with me", aka. greedy public health Nazis, and members of the pharmaceutical/pseudomedical profit-making machine, and all fools and bigots and lazy, ignorant cowards, because I am an ACTIVIST and that's what we do.
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| Kell |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
www.wellnesstaskforce.org
www.wellnesstaskforce.org
And, as a last example, this is the b.s. I'm dealing with on a daily basis. About eight years ago, I tried to call a protest against the same sorts of harassment, and while there were two e-mails to the State, I wound up being the only one who showed up. Me, and the flyers, and my little card table and nobody else, despite all those "I think that's a great idea (so long as I don't have to show up)" comments on message boards.
I'd love to be involved in a protest of this stuff, but I don't even know whom to contact, or whom I can rely on to actually show up, or who would just take the call for a protest as an excuse to launch into a discussion of "Well, all they're doing is recommending people lose weight. I don't see how that's so terrible."
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| frykitty |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
There are several questions
There are several questions from the Discussions section that would work really well also:
What's the best starting point?
How can we fight fat ignorance?
I was also thinking of: What do you expect from a fat acceptance organization?
Also, I'd be happy to pitch in on a primer, if you need me.
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| paul |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Kell: first of all, dealing
Kell: first of all, dealing with William is my business. Not yours. Everyone here is really only to be judged on how they act at BFB. If someone attacks you elsewhere, and is attacked unprovoked here, that's not something I'll settle for.
It looks from here like you're trying to do at least two things at once -- not piss off or insult or frighten away or CHALLENGE the dieters and oh-so-polite "but don't you think..." fat bashers and sabateurs and trolls and lazy, anecdote-stuck, permanent neophytes who think they can do this without cracking a book, but also be involved in Fat Acceptance as a political movement.
I think you say quite a bit by placing new people in the realm of "lazy, anecdote-stuck, permanent neophytes." Some people can't crack a book about this info because (surprise!) they might not yet know such books exist. It's not as if the moment one thinks, "I might like my body," four books pop out of the sky with a list of web links.
I think you've got solid ideas and concepts about fat acceptance and fat rights, Kell. But I would hope that there would be more understanding involved for new people. Not muckety-mucks, mind you, but new people. In addition, I think you are in the stage where you want to take things from words to actions. That too is quite good.
BFB isn't an official organization of any kind, though, and at this point in its life serves the discussion end of things. An organization might spring up around values (including a manifesto and list of demands) we discuss here, or BFB might help shift thoughts at NAAFA and/or ISAA.
Fine, but why even mention Fat Acceptance in the FAQ, etc. if the purpose of the blog is only a general discussion of fatness, aka. morbid obesity aka. being overweight, with no political positions required?
Simply because this isn't a fat-only blog, as outlined in the (surprise!) FAQ: "BFB is a fat acceptance weblog, and isn't just about fat. We've been able to maintain a diet-free zone for years now, and that's something everyone here has come to expect."
And insofar as not challenging dieters, that's your opinion. I can't imagine coming to BFB as a new person and thinking, "They really support weight loss activities!" I mean, all one has to do is stroll through the archives and read things. It's strongly evident.
The bottom line is that I am very tired of stupid, petty bickering, and the idea that everyone is wrong or delusional because not everyone is at the same stage of fat acceptance. I would hope that people on the radical side of the movement would understand that, instead of simply trying to shout out everyone who isn't there.
But I guess I'm a troll. So.
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| paul |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
You know what's funny? This
You know what's funny? This all reminds me of my very first experience with fat acceptance online. Check this out.
It was in the early 90s. I started exploring the materials available on USENET, and found a pair of groups called alt.support.big-folks and soc.support.fat-acceptance. So I posted a message. My message was, "What is it like to be fat?" I noted that I was genuinely curious.
Within hours, I had two replies saying "TROLL!" Honestly. These people thought I was just asking in order to get a rise out of others, as if my question was, "MY GOD YOU EAT SO MUCH WHY SO FAT?" or the like.
I reiterated that I was curious and received a number of good replies. My point, though, is that my initial experience with the movement's online presence, official or not, was a negative one.
I don't want that. I want people to perchance find BFB and react positively. Not negatively.
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| paul |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
frykitty: There are several
frykitty: There are several questions from the Discussions section that would work really well also:
I can't say this is a coincidence. :)
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| wicked |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
paul,
just as an aside-i
paul,
just as an aside-i think you have done a great job with this web-site and I want to personally thank you for it.
The first time ever that I posted here, I was still suffering from so many body-image issues(that I was figting but sometimes unsuccessfully)
that my first line I typed here was something like "I am not fat but I am interested in fat acceptance" because I was so ashamed of my fat I couldn't even admit online, under an alias, to people I don't know, on a fat acceptance web-site that I was fat.
I have come a lon way from there and BFB (and fatso) have helpe a lot! I do not know too many fat people. I am a fat person surrounded by thin people who talk about their diets most of the time.
Just the support that comes from knowing that there are so many people out here who feel that being fat is fine helped me so much.
And the amount of information I have received here is amazing. I quit hating my body and dieting altogether I think around 2 yrs back and thats about when I started reading and posting at BFB.
You have truly helped-please keep up the excellent work.
People that Dr. Atkins and Dr.Phil on TV all the time (eye roll) with tears in thei eyes for "transforming their lives"...blah blah..
Similarly I thank you.
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| wicked |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
ooops that was 'thank' not
ooops that was 'thank' not 'that' Dr.Atkins.
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| ming |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
Moderation of some kind can
Moderation of some kind can be a good thing. Both Slashdot.org and Kuro5hin.org employ some type of moderation system and it does help, but it certainly isn't perfect. In fact, as a communinty oriented website becomes more popular, it starts attracting those who are simply looking to "game" the system. They seek to use the underlying rules of the system to subvert the system. Even screening the users in some manner doesn't help solve the problem as can be witnessed by the (again, in my opinion) overtaking of Kuro5hin by trolls and crapflooders.
The only way to insure that discussions is to have moderators approve each and every comment. This works fine with a small forum that is slowly updated, but quickly gets out of hand as moderators are unable to keep up with the volume of comments.
Also, I see something akin to moderator fatigue set in as moderators see the same comments made over and over as well as emotionally burning out on the postings made by the trolls and crapflooders. Yeah, you can say "get a thicker skin" but at some point you just stop caring.
Personally I prefer the Slashdot style of distributed points based moderation and after-the-fact metamoderation. It allows one to quickly filter out the lesser-rated comments. The problems I see with the Slashdot moderation system as applied to BFB is that I don't believe BFB has enough users to allow the moderation and meta-moderation system to work effectively. Of course, for such a system to work, BFB would have to move to a different software base which creates yet more work. Maybe not, I know very little about MovableType. Perhaps it has comment moderation built-in.
As far as using questions to screen members, it's a good idea in theory, and I like frykitty's suggestion of a choice of questions. Overall, it would probably be a good addition to the site, but it still isn't going to solve any problems. You're still going to have people with far too much time on their hands who are going to cook up acceptable answers just so they can then troll at their whimsy. There really are people who get off on concocting elaborate social-engineering schemes playing off the community's memes.
I think what it comes down to, is that while I think some kind of comment moderation is a good idea, it won't be perfect and at some level users of BFB will always have to put up with trolls and crapflooders.
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| pseu |
May 17th, 2004 | Link |
On some other boards I've
On some other boards I've participated in, there has been an option to e-mail the moderator to report offensive or otherwise rule-breaking posts, which can ultimately result in the mods "banning" certain posters who they determine to be detrimental. I've seen online communities that can do a pretty good job of policing themselves, and just require the mods to do the actual administrative functions of cautions to posters, deleting offending posts or banning when necessary. This system prevents the mods from having to preview every post.
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| Natalie |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
For what it's worth, I don't
For what it's worth, I don't participate here as much as I'd like for fear of being called out for being a pro-diet anti-fat evil person because my ideas don't always mesh with those of the more vocal and strident members.
Just because someone doesn't agree with me 100% doesn't make them a troll. Different people are going to be in different places with fat acceptance, and we need to be tolerant and accepting of that. People who are new to the idea are going to need more guidance than folks who've been reading and participating in fat acceptance for years.
If we stomp on the newbies, how are we going to grow as a movement? How are we going to make people aware of the issues if our language is so divisive and vitriolic that people just tune us out? Strikes me as pretty unproductive at best, and counterproductive at worst.
Paul, you do a great job here, balancing all the different voices. I hope that no matter what you decide that you are able to maintain that. This site has been invaluable to me, personally, in terms of my own journey towards accepting myself and I really do appreciate it.
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| bafleyanne |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
As someone who is a relative
As someone who is a relative "newbie" around here--I have been lurking for a while, but I don't think I've ever posted a comment--I find myself in agreement with Natalie. I think there's room for a range of people to participate here, and in fact I think that's the best basis for interesting conversation! I humbly submit that I think this would be a pretty boring place if everyone was always 100% in agreement with everyone else.
I think it's *very* important to have an accepting place where new people can feel welcome to post without feeling jumped on. I further think we can trust Paul to deal with the trolls when and if they occur.
I am personally just starting out on my journey of acceptance. I am still struggling with accepting myself, nearly every day. This site has helped immeasurably, and for that I thank you, Paul.
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| jportnick |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Yeaaaa Paul!
Yeaaaa Paul!
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| quoda |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
I really like the way BFB is
I really like the way BFB is run. It isn't some crazy, psychotic, "Believe this or else!" blog, it's an open place of questioning. Not everyone who reads is a supporter of FA, and even those who are supporters are on different levels. I bought all the media BS before I started reading here, and wow, it's awesome to see a place where I can learn more and actually go back to not caring what I eat, loving my physical activity merely for what it is, and shoving off all that horrible stuff the rest of the world would like to think about my size.
I think people should be allowed to post if they are genuinely questioning. If they are merely here to stir up trouble (as some of our FA people seem to do sometimes, even!) that is a different story. This doesn't need to be a place of hostility but of education. Yes, we should do protests, yes we should fight political battles. But we cannot fight without people, and we cannot have people by attacking them every time they post something we disagree with. It's petty and counterproductive.
Paul, thank you for this resource! I think a set of questions would be a good idea, and a primer would likely help weeding out trolls. But allowing people to question allows people to learn. As a future teacher, I can't possibly argue with that.
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| shryve |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Hi Paul
Thanks for the
Hi Paul
Thanks for the fairness and open-mindedness.
Hi Kell
I am not pro-diet, I rarely diet myself. It is more like I continue to care about people even-though they do crazy diets or WLS. I do not cut off my empathy for them because they may take a different path than me.
Still, I abide by the rules of where ever I am and I even help moderate a very conservative FA area.
William
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| britkitten |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
I like the idea of having
I like the idea of having some questions in the registration process, but I think measures beyond that would stifle communication. And while I agree with much of what Kell is saying, accepting your body is extremely difficult in this day and age. If we approach newbies with firmness yet understanding, I believe we will help many more people - in discarding the cultural beauty standards and in supporting acceptance for all. As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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| shryve |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Hi Britkitten
You can be
Hi Britkitten
You can be sure that the WLS sites know how to market themselves.
I visit a lot of group where people have had or are thinking of having WLS.
I am the only one I see in these groups that also post on groups like Fatso, Sizewise and NAAFA. I usually share in a friendly manor that I am not having WLS or a crazy diet.
If most Fat Acceptance people do not visit these groups and they receive a unpleasant welcome when visiting primary Fat Acceptance groups, who is doing the promotion and marketing of Fat Acceptance?
There has to be some level of conversation instead just stating positions.
Thanks
William
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| 2DayIs4Me |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Action can change the world.
Action can change the world. Talk can change minds. Minds are part of the world.
Both are important. IMHO.
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| april |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
I think the addition of some
I think the addition of some basic questions at registration is a great filter, and also a good way to reference/clarify users' essential positions if their responses are maintained in their profile. Anything beyond that and the work you do on a daily basis would probably be overkill today. If you have to jump through too many hoops to ask a question, chances are your question goes unasked.
Ultimately, though, this site will grow enough that you will want to start using Slashcode-like moderation, so users help moderate out the trolls.
In the meantime, it does seem like the size acceptance movement is missing another group - a group that needs to exist, but the BFB isn't and shouldn't be. Where IS the radical group of fat protestors? Or heck, not even the radical group, just any subcomponent of this movement centered on action, legislation, and protest... I don't know, but I'd like to find that group.
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| LLW |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Have a great vacation, Paul.
Have a great vacation, Paul. I too appreciate the work you do here. I'm too busy to look in for months at a time, but it's nice to know it's going to be here when my schedule frees me up again.
I think there is room for all sorts of people in a FA board. A new person and a fat rights pro, a calm and patient person and an angry person like Kell, a well-read theorist and someone who prefers to tell her own story, pro-fashion people and anti-fashion people like me, men and women and hermaphrodites, straights and gays. Though I'm glad you keep an anti-diet/anti-WLS stance, too--that kind of stuff, people can get anywhere (and EVERYWHERE--indeed, it's impossible to avoid it!)
Fat people suffer a lot of rejection in the real world. Perhaps the FA community, including BFB, could make an effort to not add to that.
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| LLW |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Have a great vacation, Paul.
Have a great vacation, Paul. I too appreciate the work you do here. I'm too busy to look in for months at a time, but it's nice to know it's going to be here when my schedule frees me up again.
I think there is room for all sorts of people in a FA board. A new person and a fat rights pro, a calm and patient person and an angry person like Kell, a well-read theorist and someone who prefers to tell her own story, pro-fashion people and anti-fashion people like me, men and women and hermaphrodites, straights and gays. Though I'm glad you keep an anti-diet/anti-WLS stance, too--that kind of stuff, people can get anywhere (and EVERYWHERE--indeed, it's impossible to avoid it!)
Fat people suffer a lot of rejection in the real world. Perhaps the FA community, including BFB, could make an effort to not add to that.
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| frykitty |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
April:
I do see BFB moving
April:
I do see BFB moving very slowly in that direction. The addition of Campaigns is a big indicator. It's still web-based, but more action oriented than discussion only.
Nonetheless, there is certainly more to do, and what is required is an entirely different organization. Isn't that more in line with NAAFA's mission? I honestly don't know--their boards made me run away screaming a long time ago, and to my shame, I couldn't bear to go back.
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| Jip |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Sadly, no matter how many
Sadly, no matter how many security measures one puts up, there will ALWAYS be jerks who will fimd a way aroun them. If you try to limit the imput of people/ideas, the movement will become stagnant (and eventually irrlevant). Now, that being said, what is actually needed is to find more intelligent alternatives to the propaganda that is being thrown out there. Many of the articles I have read here and on some other sites is a VERY good start.
WLS - The root of this situation is the same as ANYTHING (surgical or otherwise) where money is involved. You have people who are not happy with their present condition (situation) who are willing to pay literally anything to change it. I think if people should at least be told the ENTIRE truth in an honest manner (just like most other surgical procedure) about the risks they are taking with their lives. Sadly, as long as there is money to be made, nothing is going to change.
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| paul |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Big Fat Blog is not a fat
Big Fat Blog is not a fat activist group per se - it's a fat acceptance weblog, one with a sizable community of members.
Whether this community becomes an organization of some sort, or folds into another organization, remains to be seen. As April voiced, though, one of the big issues is that I can't just link to [organization name] and say, "Look at what they did! Go give them your money and volunteer!" or the like. NAAFA and ISAA do take actions, but in my opinion, they're not terribly soul-stirring.
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| pseu |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
Personally, I think there's
Personally, I think there's a lot of value in weblogs (especially BFB!) as a place to get information and exchange ideas. While I certainly feel there needs to be more activism in general, I don't think every online venue has to necessarily be activist in and of itself. IMO, there's room for a lot of different types of forums.
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| turtlegrrl |
May 18th, 2004 | Link |
I will admit that I tend to
I will admit that I tend to be more toward Kell's outlook about fat rights & fat revolution. I do not agree with everything she says, & I think she is a bit impatient at times, but I also think that we need to be MORE aggressive & outspoken & not be so anxious to "make nice" so as not to hurt the feelings of the fat bigots. I am not thrilled when I detect the presence of those I can tell do not believe in fat acceptance, & those who give me the definite feeling that they are trying to undermine fat acceptance. However, I admit that I have been working on this stuff for 24 years, which is longer than some posters have been alive.
I have a problem with those who have a problem with respect, acceptance, a better life for people of all sizes. I also have a problem understanding the outlook of those who give good reviews to websites which, when I have checked them out, seemed to be all about fat hatred & promoting dieting & WLS. I just do not feel that one can believe in the rights of fat people & still believe that these things are okay. I want my fat community to be FOR fat people & about fat rights, I want my websites to be safe places to be a proud, self-loving, unapologetic fat person. And I also believe that we need to be more active in trying to overcome the hatred which is all around us & explode the myths that 98% or more of the people in our society accept as gospel.
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| ming |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
frykitty: It's nice to know
frykitty: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one that was turned off NAAFA after viewing their message boards. :-)
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| jportnick |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
RE the NAAFA discussion
RE the NAAFA discussion boards, have you checked them out lately? As one of a team of moderators I can tell you that the on-line community there is quite a bit different than it was a few months ago.
If you have questions or comments feel free to write me directly, moderator@naafa.org.
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| thelmarose |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
I've only been reading this
I've only been reading this blog for about a month, so I'm sure there's a lot I've missed in terms of the dynamics that have led us to this point. I have so far been impressed with the level of (mainly) intelligent conversation here. And that intelligent conversation leads to education, especially for those who may not be steeped in fat acceptance yet. And education, I would insist, *IS* activism. I understand it's wearying to hear the same basic stuff over and over again, so perhaps something beyond the FAQ--a primer, manifesto, etc., would be useful for newcomers. It could even be required reading in order to register. But the hostility that some people have expressed toward neophytes mystifies me. How can the movement possibly grow without newcomers? How would someone doing a Google search know that this is not a good place to come until one has thoroughly education oneself, fully accepted oneself as a fat person (if one is, indeed, a fat person), and is ready to go to the barricades immediately, as some seem to be suggesting? It has felt to me during my short time here that there is plenty of room on this blog for people at all levels in their journey toward fat acceptance. I would be sad to see that change.
I would also be sad to have to have all posts vetted before they're posted. The rhythm of conversation then depends on the work/sleep/vacation habits of the moderator (who does, of course, deserve to do all of those things, and more). I would prefer to allow a few hateful posts to have their moment in the sun before deletion than go to a moderated list. But, of course, this is your blog, Paul. I'm glad you don't want it to be moderated, but you do what you need to do. And thanks for having such a cool blog. (I actually don't like a lot of blogs because they are often so solipsistic. Yours errs too far in the other direction, if anything. Instead of endless details about your morning commute, what you had for lunch, how you feel about your in-laws, etc., we get very little sense of you as an entity outside this site.)
I didn't log on for a couple days, so I didn't see any posts that were deleted. From what I can see now, I don't see any trolls attacking Kell. Am I being naive, as Kell seems to think, or were the attacks in deleted posts? I ask this question sincerely, as I've been told before that I fail to see nefarious motives where others do.
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| frykitty |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
Jennifer: I have thought
Jennifer: I have thought about checking out the NAAFA boards again. It really has been years--at least four--since I ventured over there. I owe the place another shot.
Thelmarose: I don't believe Paul deleted any posts that were attacking Kell.
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| EmilyH |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
I think that a few questions
I think that a few questions asking people how they became interested in BFB and fat acceptance is a good idea.
However, I do think if you ban all new people, regardless of their views, you'll risk alienating folks.
Moderation could work. At least, it would slow down any trolls/flamers. But I agree with Thelmarose in that it could also disrupt the conversation flow.
I'm a member of several other online communities, and they tend to use the "alert the moderator to this post" option as well. They also have a text box that pops up, so you can't just click on the link without giving a reason.
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| jportnick |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
Frykitty, I am delighted to
Frykitty, I am delighted to hear that you'll check out the NAAFA boards again. While the atmosphere is a bit different from BFB, it's a much safer and more interesting place(at least I think) than it has ever been before. BFB, however, is in my book the place for the most thoughtful exchange of ideas. This is largely due to the precedent Paul sets.
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| paul |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
I swear, I am really going
I swear, I am really going on vacation. :)
thelmarose: First, thanks for sticking around! Insofar as this particular post goes, there was just one comment deletion, and it was by Kell. All others are fully intact.
(Instead of endless details about your morning commute, what you had for lunch, how you feel about your in-laws, etc., we get very little sense of you as an entity outside this site.)
That's no accident, I assure you. I have a personal site that used to have such details and now just has photographs. But I think that topical blogs of all stripes do a solid job and benefit from a nicely-defined focus.
Moderation is something that BFB may have to have in the future, but I'd expect that when we get to around double our current size - which is pretty big (around 650 active members.)
I appreciate the compliments from everyone. I'm more excited to see new or lurking BFBers commenting here - it's great.
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| nwhiker |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
Paul, have a great
Paul, have a great vacation!
About moderation. Would it be possible to moderate new posters for say (off the top of my head!) 5 posts and then allow full posting privileges?
Just a thought.
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| turtlegrrl |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
Have a good vacation,
Have a good vacation, Paul.
I do not resent people new to the movement, we need MORE people in this movement, God knows, & I wish that all fat people were aware of fat acceptance, & aware that there is an option other than hating one's body & being willing to destroy one's health in the pursuit of thinness. You are right, Thelmarose, that educating new people & bringing new people to the movement, is a form of activism. Some of us are very worried at the direction fat hatred in our culture is taking, & very frustrated, & we feel that we need to do a lot more, but,no, I don't want to leave anyone who genuinely wants to be part of this behind.
I have no problem with those who want to learn & have open minds & are still unlearning the programming of our thin-obsessed culture. I only have a problem with those who obviously hate fat people & do have an agenda which involves doing all they can to stop fat acceptance.
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| shryve |
May 19th, 2004 | Link |
Hi
I put all my sites on
Hi
I put all my sites on moderation and then free up the core membership that post the most and are for real.
After a while the little moderation that is left to do, is almost nothing.
William
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