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More on Alton Brown

Gosh darn it, Alton.

I've been watching Good Eats for a few years now, when a pal mentioned it. Both my wife and I have been hooked since then, finding Alton Brown's show fascinating and entertaining. But as turtlegrrl pointed out in the comments here, Alton is now on a diet for weight loss purposes.

Which, in and of itself, is fine - if he really wants to do that, and potentially foul up his body's metabolism for good and gain it back almost certainly - fine. The problem is how he describes his body, which is just 20 pounds heavier than he wants it to be:

...I realized that something had to be done about the quivering pile of goo on which my head sits. ... I estimate that I'm carrying around thirty pounds of the stuff - lard... fatback... blubber... disgusting.

Alton believes that the "obesity epidemic" is due to high fructose corn syrup coupled with hydrogenated fats. So those are out. So is any alcohol other than red wine. And no desserts. No desserts at all!

C'mon Alton. You come off as really intelligent on Good Eats, but you've bought the lies lock, stock, and barrel. Do what you need to be healthy, but why bring weight loss into it?

[Link to outside weblog, still referenced in comments, removed.]

NAAFA and Feederism | Vacation

paul May 15th, 2004 | Link | I also do wonder what Alton
I also do wonder what Alton thinks of his fat fans. Are they just quivering piles of goo, too? Or is it "okay" because they're not him? Oh, Alton.
frykitty May 15th, 2004 | Link | Apologies to Kell, but she
Apologies to Kell, but she lost me when she stated unequivocally what makes people fat. We don't really know, and I think that hurt her credibility. At least it did in my eyes. As for Alton, he recently had a heart scare. I'm cutting him some slack, assuming he took a pounding from his doctors. I think education is great--I tried looking up his Amazon wishlist to send him a copy of Campos's book (no clear winner, though)--but I'd prefer to call him uninformed than bigoted. I believe he's the type to come around; he seems like a smart, compassionate guy. I think it's time to apply the honey rather than the vinegar.
jportnick May 15th, 2004 | Link | I had never heard of Alton
I had never heard of Alton Brown until he was mentioned here. It sounds to me as if he's fallen into the trap most of America is in, and that's the belief that somehow if we hate ourselves enough we'll be thin. This strateg isn't working for America and I doubt it will work for Mr. Brown. Isn't it interesting, too, how he disassociates himself from his fat as if it's not really part of his body. It's as if he has cancer and wants to see the killer tumor removed. In fact, if he's looking for fat tissue to get rid of, his brain would need to be high on the list. Oops, you can't think anymore, but at least you have less fat than you did before. Hooray!
Kell May 15th, 2004 | Link | Please note, my blog is
Please note, my blog is dedicated unequivocably to Fat Acceptance. This means, among many other things, I take the data at face value. The single strongest determinant for fatness is genetics, period. Ignoring Ancel Keyes' work, the Minnesota twin studies, and the lack of connection of fatness with any of the mythologies of life style (gluttony, laziness) tells me the person doing the "thinking" is clinging to the status quo. Fatness is caused primarily by genetics, and to a lesser extent by dieting, and to a still lesser extent by certain diseases, i.e. PCOS. Most of the time FATNESS IS A NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC. That's one of the primary reasons is should be "accepted", right? You know, like what the movement is about? It simply stating the truth jeapardizes by "credibility" with people who don't believe in fat acceptance to begin with, then I can be certain I'm living my life well.
Mary May 16th, 2004 | Link | I'm with frykitty. Why
I'm with frykitty. Why should it matter what "causes" fatness? What if an objective doctor discovered tomorrow that fatness is a choice, and came out with a method to safely lose the weight? Then is it okay to discriminate against fat people? No matter why someone is fat, you shouldn't be able to discriminate. Period. Getting into warring studies is just inviting discrimination - if you say people shouldn't discriminate because you aren't in control of your weight, then other people who believe you are in control will feel it's all right to discriminate. Fat is fine, no matter why.
Venus May 16th, 2004 | Link | Well, in general we don't
Well, in general we don't know what makes many ppl fat, but what made ME fat was too much highfat food and little exercise. But I only know that because a) I used to be very thin yrs ago and have a very small frame (which usually means a genetically thin person), and b) when I stopped the highfat food and started exercisisng, I lost a ton. BUT this is not true of all fat ppl. especially those fat from babyhood. Fat is a very complex issue and highly individualized. As for Alton, sounds like he got hooked on the Atkin$ scam....they are the only ppl I know who harp against boht high fructose foods and transfats.
butch May 16th, 2004 | Link | I don't give a sh!t what
I don't give a sh!t what makes me fat, in fact, I'm of the opinion that when so-called experts and others go looking for what causes a way of being, they're really looking for ways to control or even annihilate that way of being. Back in the late 1980's there were a flurry of research articles claiming to outline the "cause" of homosexuality. All of this research came after nearly a decade of attacks on gays stemming mostly from the AIDS epidemic. The same form of propaganda used against gays are being used against fat people today. Same game with another name. Whether they know what makes us who we are or not, they will still deny us our rights. So eff 'em. As for this guy, Alton Brown (never heard of him), I'm sorry that he bought into the self-loathing that we're all apparently supposed to have as fat people. Hopefully as we continue to publically struggle and win our rights as fat people, he'll be raised by the tide of our victories and develop a healthy perception of himself.
michelle May 16th, 2004 | Link | But... genetics is the main
But... genetics is the main "cause" (for lack of a better word) for fatness, same as it is a main "cause" of tallness and brown eyes. Kell's letter is bang on because it refutes the popular notion (the popular truth) that fat people are fat because they eat too much and do not excersize. Alton's spiel strongly implies that excersize and eating less will cause him to lose his "disgusting" weight and that the opposite will "cause" the opposite. If he wants to think/do that, fine - I don't care but it is wrong to delcare his bigotry and absense of evidence as truth. He needs to be schooled. He stated in his website today, "If Iím fat itís because Iíve shoved to many calories down my pie hole. I donít need to chat with Oprah about it and I sure donít need to consult that loathsome profiteer ìDrî Phil. I just need to stop eating so much and exercise more." (I do see some irony in his dismissal of Phil, but whatever) I don't think countering the unfounded ideas about calorie restriction and excersise are the same as declaring there is a cause or that it is important. In other words, "they" started it and someone has to present the evidence. I agree we don't really know the whole reason that people look different (but we know what isn't the reason), but we have some strong clues and genetics is the biggie.
turtlegrrl May 16th, 2004 | Link | No, it doesn't matter WHY
No, it doesn't matter WHY people are fat, as far as deserving acceptance & respect. But it doesn't hurt to try to give the real information to someone like Alton, & they are discovering more & more genetic markers for fatness, & the HONEST researchers have shown that it is about 80% to 90% genetic. Yes, some people eat a lot & don't exercise (& a damn good many of those people are thin, btw), just as some people become fat because of thyroid problems, or PCOS, or because of taking antidepressants. As for Alton, I don't consider him fat, never have, & he has been working out seriously with a personal trainer for a year now, so I would think he must be in pretty good "shape" by now, but now he is panicking & buying into the bullshit. I think those snide little remarks about being on "Oprah" or talking to Dr. Phil indicate what he DOES believe about real fat people, that we are all weak-willed gluttons who are looking for sympathy or someone to kick our asses & whip us into shape. I always liked him too, but I am not fond of his attitude toward fat. And he really SHOULD inform himself about some things, including that, if he is having any heart problems at this early age, it is mostly likely genetic (since heart disease is also hereditary). Eating healthy food MAY help, exercise is usually good for anyone, but nothing will guarantee his health or longevity. He may not like it, but I know a lot of people who eat a lot of fatty foods, don't exercise, & carry more "goo" on their bodies than he does, who never have a heart attack. And surely he has heard about the thin, superfit, athletic types who sometimes drop dead, often while exercising, at his age. I would guess he is afraid of aging, & his own mortality, & not thinking too clearly, including about the stress that this whole dieting thing puts on his heart. I also do not feel that Kell's stand loses any credibility with me. I do a lot of research myself, & she is right about the very strong role of genetics for most of us, & that for most of us, being fat is just a natural, inherited variation in body type.
docofoto May 16th, 2004 | Link | Genetics doesn't explain the
Genetics doesn't explain the increased prevelance of obesity seen in the population. Genetic variation has changed 0% in the last 100 (or 10000) years in the population. If genetics were the primary cause of obesity (in the population) then we would expect that was some type of chromosomal mutation that affected a large portion of the population. I doubt this is the case. But, there are individual genetic differences that affect how people metabolize and process food ... all things being equal, some people will be 'fatter' than others. If social-cultural changes (ie. the way we eat, no exercise, cars etc.) had NO affect on obesity, then we would expect that the prevelance of obesity in the population would stay the SAME ... that is, the percentage of the population predisposed to being 'fatter' would be the SAME and there would be NO changes in the number of obese. This is isn't the case.
paul May 16th, 2004 | Link | Mary and docofoto, I do find
Mary and docofoto, I do find it interesting that your participation level only increased once Kell's site was linked and she was mentioned explicitly. In any case, the only thing we know is that we do not know why people are fat. This has been discussed here approximately 349 times, by the way, and I don't wish to retread the discussion.
Fatshadow May 16th, 2004 | Link | It feels like weíve
It feels like weíve discussed this 349,000,000 times. And I donít want to keep the discussion going. But whenever I read one of these discussions Iím struck by the idea that there is one reason why people are fat. There is more than one fat person, with more than one kind of genetic structure and more than one personal history and more than one medical history. The idea that there is one reason why all the people who are fat are fat is reductive and serves no one. It wonít serve the fat people who want to lose weight. It certainly wonít serve the fat people who want adequate medical care and not a medical community that medicalizees an expression of physical diversity thatís been around for EVER and doesnít look to the myriad possible causes and effects in an individual life. The health care of fat people is threatened by this one cause for every body view. If this comment brings on a bunch of "yeah but" responses then I apologize for making it. But please, please, please, take a minute and really look at fat people. Look at the differences in the way people carry their weight. Have real conversations with open hearts and minds about individual fat peopleís history. You hear so many stories. So many. Fat is not a one size fits all characteristic. Thereís more than one reason even within an individual story. And then ask yourself why no one talks about why people are tall. Because we are also, as a population, taller. Thereís an epidemic of tallness. Alert the media!
britkitten May 16th, 2004 | Link | I think the current
I think the current obsession with dieting explains an increased prevalence of "obesity" pretty well.
Mary May 16th, 2004 | Link | "In any case, the only thing
"In any case, the only thing we know is that we do not know why people are fat" Thanks, Paul. I couldn't have said it better myself. (In fact, I tried and failed.) And maybe you're right - maybe subconsciously, having Kell quoted roused me out of my stupor. One thing you can say about Kell: she's good for rousing. ;)
Kell May 16th, 2004 | Link | Paul and I disagree
Paul and I disagree vehemently about the "causes" of fatness, especially since I do not believe fatness is abnormal or a disease the vast majority of the time. And, Mary. You dehumanizing insults are exactly the kind of reason you and your trolls buddies need to be kicked off this forum. "Rousing" enough for you, fella?
paul May 16th, 2004 | Link | Paul and I disagree
Paul and I disagree vehemently about the "causes" of fatness, especially since I do not believe fatness is abnormal or a disease the vast majority of the time. Whoa. What? Did you mean someone else perhance? I have never made a statement indicating that I believe fatness is abnormal or a disease. I have simply stated, time and time again, that the root causes of fat are unknown. Nevertheless, folks, thanks for the... lively?... discussion.
Kell May 16th, 2004 | Link | Re. fat "causes". Not taking
Re. fat "causes". Not taking a stand on this question (despite overwhelming evidence) is allowing for the possibility that fatness is abnormal. I believe, firmly, that there is overwhelming evidence that fatness is "normal" to the same degree as any other characteristic. Speaking of the "causes" of fatness is, as others have said, like speaking of the "cause" of being 6'1", or the "cause" for having ears. You might as well ask what the "cause" is for any human part or feature. Meanwhile, why hasn't "Mary" et al. been kicked off for attacking me (with great point calculating over at the troll site with the other 12 year old boys, I've no doubt). This is exactly what they did to Brian Stuart, who was kicked off, even though they should be long gone and he should still be posting here. I took comments off my site specifically to not give any fat acceptance related venue to calculated troll attacks. Now, all they've done is move it over here. And, it's like, if the past repeats itself, that I'll be the one banned, and the trolls will stay. This is, simply, madness.
paul May 16th, 2004 | Link | Thanks for your input, Kell,
Thanks for your input, Kell, and everyone else. I'm taking the non-Alton discussions to email.
turtlegrrl May 17th, 2004 | Link | In the case of Alton, since
In the case of Alton, since he was working out intensely with a personal trainer for about a year before his "heart scare", I would assume there is a lot more going on with his concerns than his health. I have a strong feeling that, now that he is past 40, he is fearing aging, trying to stay young & wanting to think of himself as a "stud". I don't think he is as interested in improving his health as he is in becoming one of those guys you see on Bowflex commercials or the cover of "Men's Health", boasting about having only 7%-8% body fat. Ironically enough, while I like looking at well-built men as much as anyone else, as both Gaesser & Campos have mentioned in their books, much of the research seems to indicate that a person (male in particular) is more likely to have health problems if a larger percentage of his body weight is muscle than if it is fat, so that these superbuff bodies may NOT be a sign of glowing health. Alton is, I would say, tall (gee, I hope he knows that is genetic), probably 6'1" or 6'2" or so, &, as far as I can piece together, not only is he lifting weights seriously, but his weight has never gotten over 210-215 pounds or so. Sorry, Alton, I am a sports fan, & I have seen a lot of guys who fit those stats & work out a lot, & you can use many words to describe them, but one which does NOT apply is "fat". And I certainly agree that any "increase" in "obesity" (that wonderful imaginary 'disease' created by researchers) can well be accounted for by the greatly increased prevalence of dieting.
jportnick May 17th, 2004 | Link | One point of clarification
One point of clarification on the causes of fatness: I think we do not know why people are any weight they are, including a fatter weight. I also think that because we do know some factors which may increase weight in some people, e.g. increased caloric intake and lower levels of movement, we tend to take from that that we know the causes of fatness. We clearly do not. Genetics is a factor, caloric intake is a factor, diet history is a factor, and movement is a factor, among other things. Let's not take from this that we know something conclusive about fatness per se, because we definitely do not.
Kell May 17th, 2004 | Link | Since people cannot "eat
Since people cannot "eat themselves fat" (that was proved back in the 40s), and exercise does not have any impact on body weight beyond the single digits (see the Campos book, et al.) I don't believe we can say "movement is a factor" or "calorie intake is a factor." It's simply not in the numbers; a person would have to have a major, substantial, and totally anomalous eating disorder to even gain a small amount of weight without makeselves ill (i.e. puking) first. (Note, here, we're talking about someone not in refeeding mode after a diet, which is a whole different ball of wax.) I'm absolutely amazed that the statement "Fatness is primarily genetic" should even be a tiny bit controversial. Glenn Gaesser talks about the evolution of fatness as a survival factor. The Wooleys talked about it. It's in The Dieters Dilemma. Do we have to invent this wheel again?
michelle May 17th, 2004 | Link | I wonder if Alton knows that
I wonder if Alton knows that most people who have had WLS regain a significant amount of weight despite not only not having a stomach, but not having much of the small intestine (which absorbs those calories). Some argue that after WLS the people can "eat around the surgery" (I believe Roseanne said this?) and eat "just as much" as before than that is why they regain. This is of course ridiculous - a thumb sized pouch cannot regrow into a canned-ham-sized pouch, and small intestine does not regrow - if Alton looked into this phenomenon he'd see that what people's bodies do with food is radically different. If it was all about calories, WLS recipients would lose and continue to lose until they could not lose any more.
Stefanie May 17th, 2004 | Link | I also think it's
I also think it's interesting to explore some of the causes of fat. I've been interested in human genetics for a long time & the genetics of fatness is one of the new & fascinating areas out there. However, it matters not one bit when it comes to issues like fat acceptance and loving one's own body (rather than describing it like a hateful object - "pile of goo" indeed!)
ajoyce May 17th, 2004 | Link | Kell, your letter to Alton
Kell, your letter to Alton was great. But you did leave out another possible cause of fatness: medication weight gain. Antidepressants and antipsychotics in particular have caused lots of weight gain, and their use has increased exponentially over the last 15 years or so. (Which I don't think is entirely a negative -- having endured untreated major depression, followed by a net gain of 65 pounds on the meds, I'll take being fat any day of the week.) But other drugs, too, have fostered weight gain -- oddly enough, some of those are drugs used to treat hypertension, allegedly a major bugaboo of the fat!
jportnick May 17th, 2004 | Link | Excellent point, Andee. I
Excellent point, Andee. I hadn't thought of that myself.
Kell May 17th, 2004 | Link | The whole "cause" question
The whole "cause" question is crucial. Turning a normal characteristic into a seeming inferiority or abnormality or disease is a major part of the oppression of hated groups. American slavery was justified with an argument that blacks were not the same species as whites. The oppression of women has been justified with arguments that our bodies are intrisically flawed, that we are "failed men". (A book on my desk right now is subtitled "Woman as a Disease.") Homosexuality was considered a mental illness in the U.S. and Europe less than thirty years ago (and hence punishable by involuntary commitment or jail time as a deviant.) Don't you get it? Any description of fat bodies as intrinsically abnormal, weaker, strange, wrong is setting us up to be murdered (again) for fun and profit, to have our civil rights removed, to continue to be the objects of hatred, harassment, violence and ridicule. A good test in this case is height. All the exceptions you're so determinedly bringing up apply to height as well -- use of some drugs can result in calcium loss and therefore make people shorter. So, this means all short people are abnormal, and must have their rights, behavior and access to society limited and controlled, and they must be ridiculed for being short every chance possible, because we can't have them thinking it's OK to be short. Wake up, people. This is precisely the thinking they're using to kill us.
jportnick May 17th, 2004 | Link | Perhaps a better way to ask
Perhaps a better way to ask the question is, why are some people fat? The answer is, we don't know precisely, any more than we know why some people are thin. I do understand your point, Kell, and actually agree with it. I was trying to illustrate that in my previous post but obviously didn't succeed.
quoda May 18th, 2004 | Link | This "why are people fat?"
This "why are people fat?" argument is as stupid as arguing where life came from. Let me explain this really slow: Science is incapable of ever, EVER proving something 100%. There will always be some little thing left to wonder. We can test the law of gravity millions of times and get the same result, but that doesn't make it proven. Read the work of any decent scientist and get that in your head, please, cause it's so annoying to correct this. There are different things that cause fatness. Period. It doesn't mean someone is weak or did something wrong. Genetics can be pointed to most of the time, but there is no conclusive, hard evidence and there will likely never be. If we do not look at other factors, we ignore facts, and that's just stupid. As for Alton, it makes me so sad that he hates his body so. So many people, again and again, fall into the trap... Sorry to digress so much, but I thought I needed to say something.
jportnick May 18th, 2004 | Link | Quoda, I can understand your
Quoda, I can understand your frustration on this topic, but to be frank, your post came across as quite condescending. When you say things like "I'll say this slow" and "get this into your head" you sound like you're talking to a child, not an intelligent adult, which I think most people posting on this blog are, even if you don't agree with them all the time. Yeah, I felt I had to say something too. Sorry.
turtlegrrl May 18th, 2004 | Link | I also felt that your
I also felt that your comments were a bit condescending, Quoda. As a person with a disability, I have had more than enough of that attitude in my life, & I recognize it pretty slowly. No, science is not exact, but that sure is hell is not something you hear the "obesity researchers" admitting very loudly when they are exaggerating, lying, & often covering up information that they do not like to try to convince us all to buy the diet products &/or pills of the companies who are paying them. I know, from talking to someone who does a lot of research & writes very well on the subject, & who has a lot of important things edited OUT of her work that we are not being told all the truth. Yes, there are varying reasons why fat people are fat, but they have found over 400 genetic markers which go toward determining body size & shape, which seems like a pretty strong case to me. I also do not know why it is so much harder to for people to believe that I, for instance, inherited my basic body size & shape from my grandmother & aunts as well as I inherited fair skin & red hair from my mother, or that we are the same height. There can be a lot of factors, I know that, & I also know that many things may NEVER be known absolutely. I know that there are illnesses & medications which cause weight gain, & I also know that it seems to be that it is natural for it to be easier for the majority of people to gain weight than lose it, as a survival mechanism for our species. I think I would be as interested in understanding why it is that there are some people who can eat tons of food, exercise or not, & stay thin, since that seems more unusual. I understand that science is not exact, but I wish that EVERYONE in the media, the government, & diet industry would be open about this, & that they would stop scapegoating fat people, & assuming that we are all lazy, out-of-control gluttons who eat constantly & never exercise. Even more, I wish that more of us could accept that being fat is mostly just a normal variation in body size, & that there IS NO DISEASE CALLED OBESITY, & we do not need to be cured. Please disagree with us as much as you wish, we will all have different feelings & opinions, & be at different places on the acceptance journey, but please don't treat us as the media & diet industry & most of the medical profession do, as if we were backward children.
turtlegrrl May 18th, 2004 | Link | BTW, Alton, I just wanted to
BTW, Alton, I just wanted to say that I especially loved that "quivering pile of goo" line. Just when did you turn into Jabba the Hut, which is how I have heard some OTHER idiots occasionally refer to VERY fat people? Your consciousness needs raising, & your sense of humor could use some work.
LLW May 18th, 2004 | Link | I have some sympathy for
I have some sympathy for Alton. He has recently confronted his mortality. He'd like to find some piece of his body that is responsible for the terrifying fact of it. He lives in a culture that demonizes fat and says (inaccurately, as we all know) that it's a disease or a cause of disease. So on his own body, he found something to blame for the shocking fact that he's going to die. I've been reading Seid (Never too Thin, the Obesity Myth of 15 years ago) and she speaks to the very normal human terror of mortality. Religions were invented, in part, to help us convince ourselves there was some meaning to death or some clever way out of it. As people in "advanced" societies become less gullible about religious doctrines that promise reincarnation or afterlife, they are left with "I'm gonna DIE!" and no cushion between ego and that knowledge. Result: terror. Fat does not kill...but I can see why people wish it did (wish it so hard that they delude themselves that is does, with the help of the profiteering "medical" and fashion industries). Then all we'd need to do is get rid of that awful fat, and we'd live forever. No, of course this doesn't make sense as a perfect piece of Aristotlean logic, but I believe it's the "emotional logic" the average person, and Brown, are grasping at. The other side of fat hatred--aesthetics--is, from the inside, a painful experience, and it's painful no matter if you aim that aesthetic disapproval at yourself or simply suffer it at the hands of 90% of the population. Add to this the likelihood that Brown will regain 30 pounds after he loses the 20, as well as increase his risk of heart disease by dieting, and I see a set of facts that leaves me sympathetic. I feel like patting his hand and saying, "Alton, honey, it's true, you're going to die. Until then, enjoy your desserts and love the body Goddess gave you." Not that it's EASY, mind you. It's a daily struggle for all of us. Alton is scared and in a low phase. I hope he'll get better.
jportnick May 19th, 2004 | Link | Great post, LLW. You make
Great post, LLW. You make some excellent points.
quoda May 19th, 2004 | Link | Sorry that I came across so
Sorry that I came across so rudely before, I admit I was very irritated. I agree that obesity is not a disease, but it is something with many causes. That's what I wanted to put across, that it is genetic in many cases, but in other cases it can be caused by not-so-healthy habits of yo-yo dieting. And that should not have to happen with people. It breaks my heart that people make a normal trait turn into something deadly by hating their own bodies enough to starve themselves.
frykitty May 19th, 2004 | Link | Beautifully said, LLW.
Beautifully said, LLW.
EmilyH May 19th, 2004 | Link | The problem is that no one
The problem is that no one is ever going to accept that obesity is not a disease until the entire medical profession stops telling them that. We'll all end up dying of something someday. We might as well enjoy life while we're here.
turtlegrrl May 19th, 2004 | Link | Thank you for clarifying
Thank you for clarifying your position, quoda. And that was beautifully-stated, LLW, as always. I understand that Alton is afraid, though of course he started his intense workout routine about a year BEFORE he had this 'mortality' scare (kind of ironic, really, & I am speaking here as a very active person who believes that exercise is beneficial, that he works out & builds up his muscles, then gets a health scare). We all wish we could find a way around dying, & you are right, of course, it is easy to listen to the gospel according to the media & diet industry & believe that if you are not immortal & in perfect health, it must be because you have 15% body fat instead of 7% or 8%. It is amazing how that fear & how the programming of this culture can overwhelm otherwise intelligent people. I sincerely hope that Alton will come to his senses before he completely destroys his health. You are right, Emily, we all die of something eventually, & living in the moment we have is vitally important. I have very long-lived genes, but no immortality in my family. Of course, given the culture in which we live, if I am hit by a truck crossing the street when I am 110, my death will be added into those "fat kills" statistics.
jportnick May 19th, 2004 | Link | Gotcha now, Quoda, thanks.
Gotcha now, Quoda, thanks.
LLW May 21st, 2004 | Link | thanks for the praise. It's
thanks for the praise. It's especially flattering coming, as it does, from such a bunch of intelligent and articulate bunch of women as y'all.
jportnick May 28th, 2004 | Link | This is a great group, isn't
This is a great group, isn't it? BFB is the best place I know of on the net for intelligent conversation on a topic which is obviously near and dear to many of our hearts.

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