Tired of High-Tech Fat Hatred

I only read Ask MetaFilter these days, and I make it a point to try to avoid the near-daily weight-loss questions. Today's is from a woman who wants to wire her mouth shut (at least folks are telling her that's dumb, although the standard eat less/exercise more has popped up and I have better things to do with my time than to try to preach size acceptance over there--been there, done that, got the scorch marks). For a while, I was reading BoingBoing Lite, which allowed me to filter Cory's posts out of the RSS feed (he's the main offender over there), but then it broke, so I took it off my Bloglines, because I just can't deal with him--I review SF/F for a national publication, and I can guarantee you that as long as I handle the section, his work will never be reviewed. The only other sort of tech/geek blog I read these days is 43 Folders, because I like some of the workflow suggestions; my work email is pretty high volume and their Inbox Zero series was a humungous help to me. Too bad I don't use a Mac at work, because otherwise I'd be all over their other suggestions. Sigh. All that to say that I feel your pain. The geek/tech world is, I think, so virulently anti-fat because there seems to be a perception of geeks/techies as fat and socially inept so there's this push to prove that they aren't those things--even if, well, they are. I see a lot of the comments as a combination of self-righteousness (for those who have managed to lose weight) and self-hatred (for those who haven't), and it's so overwhelming that I'm not sure that there is a way to overcome it.

Same here, Natalie, on 43folders - I love that site. And like you, I can only apply those tips to the Mac at home. But they're helpful. I think you make a great point on trying to overcome the stereotype, though - it's in a backlash stage, which has the effect of alienating those of us who are fat, anyway! Gah.

Yeah. Sigh. I used to read medgadget daily, until this post: http://www.medgadget.com/archives/2006/03/the_news_from_o.html

Chartreuse, that's a perfect example.

Natalie, I so want your job! I think it may be a case of "kick the dog." Techies tend to be major geeks. (No problem for me; I tend to really like geeks.) As a result, I think that a lot of them look to torment someone lower on the social scale than they are to make themselves feel better.

Chartreuse, that is a great example of the horrifying ignorance out there. How would one person be able to judge another's pain threshold? It's not like that's an easily measurable/quantifiable parameter.

Is there an opportunity to post back? I am on a few "progressive" sites and we have done to death the liberal antifat bias. But I just keep posting to the contrary. Is it tiring at times? Yes! Am I talking to the wall sometimes? Probably. But it does give me a sense of empowerment. I feel like it is a place I belong too. If they don't agree with me, TS, I don't agree with them, why are their feelings more important than mine. And no matter how tenacious the antifat mentality is, I can hang in just a tad longer. And I have gotten a few positive post and private e-mails that have made it worthwhile. I have even made a few people tired, which gives me a perverse sense of satisfaction. I know I haven't opened their minds, just shut their mouths for a few minutes. "If we cared as much about CO2 as BMI, there might still be time!"

I think Metafilter has gotten a little bit better.  Recently, I've seen people make callouts against other posters who throw around "fat" as an insult, and it didn't turn into the usual ugly fray.  I also make a habit of skipping the weight loss "Ask Me" questions.  However, when a big guy was asking about mens fashion, and someone started the "you need to lose weight" banter, I was quick to speak to the innappropriateness of the comment, and nobody piled on me.Boing Boing just makes me sad. Jim Romensko used to occasionally post those "fat gawking" stories about super size folks on Obscure Store.  I wrote him a letter about how exploitative and inappropriate it was.  I don't know if it was my letter, but I haven't seen similar stories on there lately.   

...no matter how tenacious the antifat mentality is, I can hang in just a tad longer. And I have gotten a few positive post and private e-mails that have made it worthwhile. I have even made a few people tired, which gives me a perverse sense of satisfaction. I know I haven't opened their minds, just shut their mouths for a few minutes I'm with you all the way, Pani! It's like exercising the arguing muscles - at times exhausting but I find it usually pays off in the long run.

Euterpist, it's just a part-time freelance gig. It keeps me in yarn and books (well, kind of). The day job is much less exciting. I remember that post, kimdog. I'm glad to hear that the thread didn't turn into a trainwreck--then again, I've noticed that AskMe tends to be a kinder place than the blue, too. The thing about MeFi that upsets me is that a couple years ago, I sent a fairly detailed email to Matt detailing why I thought him allowing anti-fat comments and threads to stand was inappropriate and I never got even "duly noted, thanks for your concern" email from him. Bah.

I kinda agree with them as for the portion sizes. It's kinda hard to deny that the size of portions in america is ridiculous. Whats really 5 servings people think are one. Resteraunts serve giant plates of food. It's too much really.

I don't get it - why do they talk about fat in a techie site? The world is becoming stupider and stupider and stupider.

This is weird, because I just had a conversation with a friend of mine about this recently. I've never been to Japan, so I can't vouch personally, and this story is second-hand, but basically, it goes like this: my friend Christy has a friend who is Japanese, Ms. X (because I don't remember her name), who she corresponds with over email regularly. Apparently, Ms. X is always asking Christy for descriptions of American holiday meals so she can relate them to her boyfriend, who is terminally hungry. I think it's a misconception that the Japanese are happy to always have such small portions, at least for some Japanese people. Ms. X's boyfriend is always hungry, and would eat more if he could, but Ms. X won't let him because she's embarrased that people will find them presumptuous. It's, once again, a shame issue. Last Thanksgiving, Christy took pictures of their dinner to email to Ms. X. Ms. X said that her boyfriend wouldn't shut up about how big and juicy the turkey looked. He's almost fetishized our food because he is starving! However, eating as much as he personally would like to is simply not a possibility, in societal terms, apparently. The story was revealing to me because it does seem like most people hold up other cultures, like the Japanese, as paragons of food control and thinness. But I think if many Japanese people had their druthers -- namely if it wasn't considered shameful to eat "more than your share" -- they might eat more. No offense to any Japanese or Asian cultures if this was a humongous generalization. Like I said, it is one story of a personal experience a friend had, and may not represent many people in Japan. Certainly made me think, though.

Portion sizes aren't the topic, folks.

Great. Now I have to start writing a size-postive tech blog. THANKS. Just kidding... but someone should do it.

What an example of narrow-mindedness and hypocrisy.  All the broad-sweeping, misinformed generalizations about overweight people and "what's wrong with us."  Plus, how do they know there aren't any overweight Japanese people in Japan?  I'm sure they have their fair share, sheesh.  And the hypocrisy:  I worked in the tech sector (Quality Assurance) for years, and even the skinny geeks were seen more often eating Pop Tarts and Doritos than something they would have us eat.

There aren't very many large Asians, but it's not because they undereat. It's just that they tend to have a naturally slim build. Anyone who thinks that people of Asian ancestry don't eat very much has obviously not hung around with them. Folks, variation in size is not nearly 100% due to differences in eating habits. There's a huge genetic component, and most Asians are not predisposed to be fat.

I'm starting to post a lot more on dailykos and I find I'm fighting the same sorts of fights. I actually went to yearlykos, which was fantastic (guess what? we're average), but had hesitated due to the antifat liberal bias. I even felt I had to announce I was going in a diary. I'm starting to call myself the "fat liberal" to counter the "fat republican" put down, even though I don't necessarily want that to be my sole identity.

Paul, I'm sorry, was I off-topic? It seems like portion-sizes are partly the topic. If some tech-blogs are posting items on the topic of "portion sizes in other countries" that are causing people to comment about how disgusting fat people are, which in turn causes you to post here about how those tech-blogs that post those items are part of the problem, aren't the comment sections in those tech-blogs that fat-bash regarding portion sizes "on topic"? My head is spinning.

My point was more about the fat bias on high tech sites, not portion control.

Natalie - take heart, Matt never e-mails anybody back.

Yeah I do not like discussion about the stereotypical "huge american portions" because it diverts the issue, which is already at the outset framed in an anti-fat way. I do not care about amounts of food, or what anybody in the world eats. It is irrelevant to FA.

I have always been a little confused by this sort of thing... I always thought the stereotype was (and this was always one of those few stereotypes I thought had at least a little bit of foundation in fact)that techies, geeks etc. were less superficial in this regard and would be more scientific about accuracy. Those sweeping, uninformed generalizations.....so immature and ignorant. I would expect this sort of discourse to crop up more on some weight loss or celebrity/reality tv discussion board.. I guess thats why stereotypes all around are just that...stereotypes...

Wicked - Anyone who's ever spent time in an organization such as Mensa, where techies and fat people abound would have this stereotype blown apart rather quickly. People can be more anti-fat than you'd expect. As for accuracy, techies are surrounded not just by anti-fat rhetoric, but also scholarly-appearing articles about the Obesity Epidemic. In order to find the truth, you really have to dig, or be exceptionally observant, and most people don't and aren't. Why should they be? Hasn't it been conclusively proven (somewhere) that fatness is The Plague of the century? We read and research because our very lives depend on it, and some of US even have problems accepting it, as it is contrary to everything we're told. It's definitely not you I'm annoyed at, Wicked, it's just that the prevailing attitude is quite frustrating.

heh gotcha strawberry. Its sad though :-/ Pity some otherwise smart people have the "Oh its just the health aspect that bothers me" argument to fall back on to hide their superficial fat bigotry.

You've got that right, wicked. Even when you meticulously research the reality of the "obesity epidemic" and show them that study after study proves that their prejudices are founded on myths, they refuse to believe it. I had one fellow respond "Well, of course you can find one or two studies that back your point [when I had shown him over two dozen from last year to 45 years ago], but I know that fat is unhealthy, so I will always believe that fat people should just show some discipline and lose weight." I had another (in the same round of correspondence) respond that "research has found that people tend to underreport their caloric intake by 18 to 20 percent, while obese people tend to underreport it by 30 to 35 percent." Of course, he didn't point me to any research. He told me to Google it. What a putz.

KEEP POSTING. The worse the hate gets the more important it is to counter. But remember who your target audience is: it's the fat people who are too ashamed and uninformed to defend themselves. These are the people who post "I know I'm weak, but I've tried so hard...." Your job is to inform them, persuade them, and empower them. Only think about the haters as loud background noise that distracts you from your conversation with potential allies. Or secondarily as a rhetorical challenge. "What's the best counter to this insult, this argument, this non-sequitor..." You're learning, and you're showing others how to defend themselves. If not against the haters, then against their own self-hatred. If you manage to persuade or tone down a bigot...hey, it's a bonus. But don't count on it, and don't let them discourage you from your main objective. Use links too! You don't have to recreate the universe. Instead of arguing point by point about the bad "obesity epidemic" science I usually just link to that great scientific american article (hard to find now by google): http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?SID=mail&articleID=000E5065-2345-128A-9E1583414B7F0000&chanID=sa006 It has the advantage also of coming from a well-respected source. So you don't get the standard "that's just the lunatic fringe, but everybody knows..." dismissals. By the way, IMHO the atmosphere *is* getting much worse. I now routinely see calls for fat people to be fired from their jobs, denied healthcare, taxed, publicly ridiculed, ostracized... and all in the name of making us "healthier." But what's scarier is that you're now hearing that crap from otherwise sane people. And not limited to techie sites. It's everywhere. I blame the stupid reckless asses who populate public health, but that's for another thread.

Thanks for the Scientific American pointer, Kate! I often search for a good article to send to skeptics initially, and that one is absolutely perfect!

I second that thanks for the link. I do use a lot of links, including to NIH, which can hardly be considered the lunatic fringe, but the bigots don't see anything they don't want to. Thanks, too, for the advice on my target audience. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Just for the record, I'm a Kate, too.

I suggest PC Magazine. It's just a tech site, no commentary by users. Also Eurekalert.com is good for general science news.

Et tu, Kottke? Note that there's nothing in the linked piece about fat people.

From what I read, they appear to all be teenage boys, which would certainly explain a lot.

I dont really read these things because I don't have a lot of time, but there are loads of tech-oriented sites that dont even discuss these things, let alone have a position on them.