Southwest: Still Hates Fat People

Amazing post. Thanks for posting the link.

This is beyond excellent.

I love the writing here, it's brilliant. I especially love when she says (paraphrasing): "If being in contact with my upper arm and thigh for a one-hour flight from Tucson to Albuquerque is going to cause you to have a breakdown, you have much bigger problems than my fat!" Go get 'em, Tigress! I, alas, have to fly SouthWorst this week for vacation; my boyfriend (who is thin) made the reservations because they were much less expensive than the other airlines for the dates we wanted to fly, but he didn't know about their crypto-fascist boarding policies until I told him. He says he's prepared to stand by me in the event they try to prevent me from boarding. Now, I don't know why they would; I wasn't prevented from flying on JetBlue a couple of months ago, and their seats are only half an inch wider than SW's. But as Amy points out, she wasn't prevented from boarding on other planes either. They supposedly have their policy because they need to be able to get everyone's arm rests down for takeoff, which shouldn't be a problem with me, but if they're not even allowing some people to try to get the arm rests down before accosting them, that be some pretty ugly shit. Anyway, when I get back next Monday I'll let you all know how it went.

I also had a horrible plane experience flying from Spain to NYC. The airline was Air Plus Comet - the plane had the smallest seats I've ever seen, as it had 9 seats per row in coach as oposed to the standard 8 that most airlines will carry. The armrests did not go up, and I was literally built into my middle seat for the entire plane, with the sides of the seat into my flesh. The distance between rows was minimal as well- with the seat in front of me right next to my face. Some people in the plane simply couldn't fit! And when the flight attendants saw anyone standing they would yell at them and send them back to ther seat. Crazy! Air Plus Comet.

amazing that things like this still happen today.

This just reminds me of how everything for fat people costs more. I'm always amazed how much more clothing for bigger sizes goes up, not just a little, but A LOT. I truly feel like it's the price they want us to pay, like a penalty, for being fat. I also have to fly this year. I always take Delta because it's the only non-stop that goes where I have to go (Nice, France)...and they also have put in more seats, which seem to always be packed. Fortunately my hubby travels with me and he is average-sized, but he too complains about being packed like a sardine. So it's not just fat people. Not looking forward to it, though.

That lady rocks. She is so right. I really like this part: Of course, the airline is under no obligation to design a plane that suits me, but if they are offering a particular service which I purchase a ticket for, and I am willing to suffer temporary discomfort for the benefit of traveling swiftly to a distant destination, isn’t that my decision, not theirs? And this: If they are getting complaints about being "crowded by large passengers," as they claim, why is the solution to bar fat passengers, instead of suggesting that the whiner uncomfortable passenger buy a second seat? Ooh, good point! Well, I'll stop before I end up quoting the entire post. I clicked a link on her blog to another awesome post that I highly recommend as well: http://feminist-reprise.blogspot.com/2005/01/its-not-fat-its-stupidity.html

I don't understand why they can't just have a couple of rows in economy with 3 seats in the middle area (where there are usually 4), and charge a little (like 25%, not 2x) more for them. Maybe they could have more leg room, too, so that they would work for both large and tall people.

I'm sure a lot of people, of all sizes, would happily pay the extra if that were offered. But...that means they'd have to get...MORE PLANES! Boogaboogabooga! (sorry, couldn't resist)

Fabulous. I have to fly Southwest tomorrow for work. I travel a lot for work, and because we use a travel agent, and I like to fly out of the smaller Burbank airport instead of the heinous LAX, I can't really pick and choose my airlines. When I got my itinerary, I didn't think much of it...until I saw this. Great. There was some airline I flew on last year (I don't remember which) and I could barely fasten the seatbelt around me. Now, I'm fat (around 210) but I know that there were people on the plane that were fatter than me. How did they manage? The weirder thing was that on the flight home (same airline, same plane model) the seatbelt was more than big enough. Is it a seat lottery going on here? Was it bad luck that I got a seat with a tiny belt, or something? I kind of dread flying now.

Did you try to adjust the belt? I've been able to get it to a comfortable length every time I've flown, and I'm probably around your size.

GAH, I accidentally hit the mouse before I actually meant to post--sorry about that. (I guess that teaches me not to hover the cursor over the "Post your comment" button...) Anyway, this post reminds me of the experience I had about five and a half years ago when my pipe band went to Scotland. We flew Air Transat, which was a big mistake; many of the people on the trip were taller than usual, wider than usual or both. Nobody had to purchase a second seat, but the experience was almost uniformly as uncomfortable as is described in the Feminist Reprise post. Oh, and just a thought based on something in one of the links in the Feminist Reprise post: If Southwest claims that forcing fat customers to purchase a second seat is more costly to them because they absorb various related costs, what's in it for them? I'm guessing that they don't make much of an effort to inform their customers about the refund process.

To me the biggest problems are the inconsistency of the policy and lack of a real guideline for who needs to buy a second seat. I'm 5'7" woman, about 220 lbs, and wear a size 18-20. I find that some seats feel small to me, but others do not. So if I was planning to buy a plane ticket, how do I know what I need? How do I know if it's my obligation to inform the airline of my possible "special needs"? I will admit that I find it annoying/uncomfortable if there's a particularly large person wedged in the seat next to me (as in, I don't want the person next to me spilling over into half my seat) but I don't find that unreasonable. I do unreasonable to be so vague and leave it up to a petite size 2 airline worker to judge my size. Why not just have some standard measure/test seat to make everyone's life easier? Also, how about a way to screen out people who hog the armrests and make them buy extra seats? I'd rather sit next to a considerate fat person than a thin or medium sized person who outright CHOOSES to take up extra space.

Boy, this hits the button for me. I haven't been on a plane in 4-5 years and I've got to fly to England today. I have no idea what my weight is, maybe 250lbs or so, and while I've not had any problems with seatbelts flying British Airlines, United, or IcelandAir, I'm flying British Midlands for the first time and I'm terrified I won't fit. Bah.

What a wonderfully written, incisive post. I love this woman and her blog. I"ll be reading her more often.

I was actually reading about Southwest for my marketing class today, and after reading the materials, I kind of agree with some of their policies. I know that most people may not agree with me on this (as I didn't before I read my textbook) but basically Southwest's business model is based on "giving you less for much less." Meaning, they know their planes are uncomfortable, their seats are narrow, etc. They do it on purpose, so that they can cut costs everywhere and offer much cheaper fares (e.g. $49 vs. $250 average for intra-area flights.) By doing that, not only are they very profitable, but they are bringing the prices down for the entire airline industry. Therefore, we all benefit from that. Unfortunately, their business model focuses on flying more people per plane so that they can make up for the supercheap fare. I understand that. They need each and every one of those $49 seats to be filled in order to make a profit. Therefore, I understand that if someone is taking up two seats, they should pay for two seats, not one. They also cannot give discounts on the second seat because the fares are so low already. The alternative is to fly on a different airline, with larger seats and more space between rows. Sure, it will cost more, but it will also be more comfortable and you will have more amenities than in the stripped-down Southwest flights. And think that if Southwest didn't operate in its low-cost model, your seat in a different airline covering the same itinerary would be higher. I know that this opinion will be unpopular on this board - but I truly believe that Southwest is not being so unfair. And this comes from a fat person (me) who tries to fight discrimination on a regular basis.

You are right, Ordinaria, in a way. But we have another option. We can boycott Southwest Airlines. I think I prefer the latter.

Honestly, if airlines would make it easier to buy two seats up front, I'd be happy to do it -- as long as I didn't have to pay more for the second seat than I did for the first. If I could easily book three seats for us when I travel with my husband, it would be worth it on all but the shortest flights. It would certainly be a lot cheaper than paying the fees that airlines charge these days to use miles to upgrade seats to first class, which is my usual means of dealing with my size 28 self traveling with my very tall husband. Ordinaria, you're right, to a point. Yes, Southwest needs to sell every seat to have their flights work financially and to "give away" a seat to accomodate a fat person means they lose the opportunity to sell that seat. I think we all understand that. The problem is that there isn't a set policy that defines the circumstances under which a person flying Southwest is required to purchase an additional seat. Instead, gate agents arbitrarily, and often in a publicly humiliating way, decide whether or not a person can fit in one seat. Prospective passengers are told as they are boarding at the gate that they must purchase an additional seat or they will be refused boarding. That's a big part of the problem here. Again, if it were a simple matter of selecting one seat or two at the time of booking, personally, I'd just book and pay for two seats and be done with it. I'd be more comfortable and the people around me would be more comfortable. Even if I were THIN, I'd love to be able to book an extra seat, so as not to have to deal with shrieking children or coughing, sneezing sick people or kindly strangers who want to make conversation for the entire flight. But since you have to call and talk to a person to book multiple seats, and since the airlines now charge a fee to make reservations over the phone, I'm more inclined to take my chances that I'll be able to get an empty seat next to me than not. Your proposed alternative -- take another airline -- isn't always feasible. When I travelled for work, I had very little choice about what airline I flew. I took the flights that offered the cheapest fares. There are some airports where SW always has the cheapest flights. And as for the idea that you'd be more comfortable and get more amenities on another airline, the only way that's likely to happen is if you fly in business or first class because, thanks in large part to competition from Southwest and similar low fare airlines, most traditional airlines have significantly reduced services to customers traveling in economy class. I think that the jury is still out on whether Southwest has helped or hurt the airline industry. To me, Southwest is to airlines what Wal-Mart is to retailers: it's given the other airlines an excuse to cut services to passengers and benefits to their employees while forcing reductions on their suppliers to lower costs. I'd also question your statement that "we all benefit" from lower prices. People who can't afford to pay higher prices benefit, but people who would be willing to pay more for additional services don't -- because those other airlines have cut back on their services to try to compete with Southwest. Given recent bankruptcies and continuing economic turmoil in the airline industry, the model seems to be just reducing our options when it comes to air travel, not creating benefits for every traveller. Certainly people who work in the airline industry have not benefitted from the layoffs, pension and benefit changes and lower salaries forced on them by their employers trying to compete with the low fare carriers. And while "giving you less for much less" may sum up Southwest's business model from a marketing perspective, operationally, there's a lot more to Southwest's profitability that that: lack of hubs, flying a limited number of types of planes to minimize flight and ground crew training and maintenance costs, flying mainly in markets with lower rates of weather-related delays (there's a reason Southwest doesn't fly much in the Northeast), etc. All of this contributes more to Southwest's bottom line than filling every seat on every plane. Sorry to go on for so long, but since, IMO, Southwest, Wal-Mart and their ilk are destroying the American economy, I can't help myself when it comes to them.

My husband recently flew on Southwest for work, and he is probably about 300 lbs. He was nervous about it, and purchased a seat belt extender in advance, so he wouldn't have to ask for one. It worked for him and he said the flight worked out better than he thought it would. I don't have a problem buying a second seat, well, except for the expense of it, but that is what prohibits how much I fly in the first place. I can understand others not wanting what little space they have in their seat encroached on by my body, though, and I would like the extra room myself. If I do fly now, it always fly with my children and I always buy seats for them and have even when they were infants. There was no way I would feel comfortable packed in tightly to another person with a baby on my lap as well, especially when it came time to nurse her and her feet would be sticking over. But even when I had an infant in a carseat taking up a space, the plane was overbooked and the flight attendant came and specifically asked me if I had bought a ticket. I'd worry that somehow if a flight was overbooked, conveniently enough my "extra seat" would be the bumped one. And I wouldn't want to be made to buy an extra seat if the two seats next to me contained a 30 lb and a 50 lb child. Clearly no need for me to buy an extra seat in that case, but if it was simply a matter of size, I might be made to, and that does not sit well with me at all.

jmars, I agree with most of your points. I definitely think that there is no excuse for public humiliation. I also agree that the fact that SW doesn't have set policies regarding who should book two seats as well as a good booking procedure is not to be excused. And I agree with your comparison of SW with Wal-Mart, although I don' think that SW's practices are as unethical as Wal-Mart's, although they might come close. I just wanted to present a different side of a situation that seemed to be it had been presented in an extremely one-sided way in Amy's article. Not to say that I don't feel and share her pain. What would you guys think about the idea of an airline that caters exclusively (or "mostly") to fat people? Basically, an airline where you pay a little bit more (but not twice as much) but you have the assurance that everything in the plane, from the seats to the bathrooms, seatbelts, trays and isles, will be friendly to people of all sizes. And, even better, NO ATTITUDE FROM ANYONE. Would it work financially? Would you be a customer?

We should not have to have a "special" airline to get that stuff. The majority of people in the US are fat and if the airlines want -my- money they're going to have to play nice.

I recommend Aer Lingus for anyone heading to Ireland. I can't say that I remember the seats being extra wide, but they actually had leg room! I went to cross my legs, then realized, hey, I just crossed my legs. In coach. I pointed this out to my friend who was travelling with me and we both marvelled at it. It's amazing how a few extra inches in the leg area can make you feel much less claustrophobic. I don't recall feeling like I was jammed into the seat. While I'm not really large (size 14), I do carry all of my weight in my hips, so when I sit down, I splatter out and that usually means being up against the arm rests. Not really tight or uncomfortable, but not a comforting feeling, nonetheless, to someone who IS claustrophobic. And on an 8 hour plane trip. Of course, that extra leg room means extra table space for those with more belly.

"Basically, an airline where you pay a little bit more (but not twice as much) but you have the assurance that everything in the plane, from the seats to the bathrooms, seatbelts, trays and isles, will be friendly to people of all sizes." That airline (almost) exists - it is Midwest. All the seats are two by two as in first class (they even have the larger divider between them). More leg room, too. They haven't deliminated pillows/blankets and snacks (you don't have to pay for the "snack pack" as on Northwest), plus there are those hot chocolate chip cookies they serve you...yum. There is no first class on Midwest - the whole thing is "first class." The drawback? They have limited routes and slightly higher costs. But I fly them whenever I can. Sun Country and AirTran allow first class upgrades for between $75 and $100. I try to get an upgrade whenever I fly them. I wonder why other carriers don't do upgrades for $$ instead of frequent flier miles? You would think they'd welcome making a hundred buck more rather than flying with an open seat in first class.

I didnt know about Midwest. Thanks for the info. We should start a list of good guys/bad guys for airlines.

I am overweight, with a noticeable gut, but what I worry about most is my very broad shoulders. I'm built like a linebacker, and my bum always fits into the seat, but the shoulders spill out. I sit on the aisle so I can lean into it, and that usually solves the problem. However, Southwest would probably single me out as too fat for the seat, even though I can put down the arm rest just fine (despite what their policy says) because it's up to the gate agent, who is probably pretty slim. How can a slim person be expected to make an accurate judgement when they have narrow shoulders and hips? I would also fail a weight test, since I weight much more than what most people guess. That said, it was my understanding that most airline size policies are for the super-fat individual whose bottom encroaches into the next seat, and there I have some understanding. I have actually flown next to someone who was very large, and who put up the armrest and took up part of my seat, which I can spare very little of to start with. It was definitely uncomfortable. I'd sit up against Amy's arm or thigh any day, but this guy was literally crushing me into the armrest, and my hip hurt so much when I got off the plane that I couldn't walk. I didn't say anything, though, because I am also large, and I didn't want him to feel bad. Despite my experience, though, I still think it's discriminatory. It seems to me that gate agents applying the policy unevenly is the problem, not the policy itself. In the real world, though, I wouldn't want to chance it.

It was asked: Why not just have some standard measure/test seat to make everyone's life easier? It would seem to be a great idea - just like that little contraption that your carry on bag needs to fit into. Unfortunately, since there are several different kinds of planes (a smaller variety for SWA than other airlines, but it's still there) the seats are different for each. It makes it impossible to know that you'll have the same amount of room and comfort in seat 9A from flight to flight.

I'm pleased to report that my flights were fine, and that, in fact, I even had leg room! If I weren't already married, I'd propose to Airbus.

That's great, Hekatesion. BTW, I was thinking: if they're going to charge some people more to fly, why not just do it by weight? And I mean you PLUS your luggage. The heavier the plane, the more fuel they need to use, so it makes some sense. It doesn't matter if you're fat, a body builder, or a fashionista who has to take 4 suitcases for a weekend trip: charge something for every pound above a certain weight. That would be fair.

Well, I'm back from my trip, and I'm happy to report the airline was not a problem...at least not for me. Nonetheless, after hearing the horror stories from others, I doubt I'll be flying with them again until they change their policy. Yes, I know all airlines have similar policies, but this airline enforces them in such a capricious and humiliating way that I can't see giving them my business again. FWIW, I didn't find their seats much smaller than most airlines'. But I have to agree with those who say there's no reason they or any other airline can't offer a few rows of larger seats that cost a bit more; I think a lot of people, and not just fat folks, would gladly pay the extra for a bit more comfort.