Big Fat Facts Big Fat Index

Fat Woman Shut Out of Dating Service

Please note that this is not a dating site, never has been, and never will be.

April sent in this story of discrimination: a dating service flatly denied to help Roberta Traynor when she revealed her weight. The kicker? She's 5'5" and not even 200 pounds.

LunchDates (terrible name) owner Marty Sack put it bluntly: "I just don't have the people for everybody. Whether it's age or body type, religion, hobbies, if someone asked us for something we can't do we try to be honest about it." He's claiming there's no audience.

As April asked, if a dating service denies fat clients, is it just being "realistic"? Or is it discrimination?

Victory in Oregon | Book Capsule: Taking Up Space

quoda November 11th, 2005 | Link | I think this company is just
I think this company is just shooting itself in the foot, really. Dating and match companies that act all exclusive just show that they aren't made for a capitalistic society with all shapes and sizes. It's just bigotry to say no. But I think other clients need to avoid the place before this idiot gets the point.
rebelle November 11th, 2005 | Link | Clearly, this is
Clearly, this is discrimination--possibly just that of the staff member, and then the site's organizer didn't want to cop to screwing up. How is he to know that there's not "somebody" out there for a 5'5" woman who weighs less than 200 pounds? Does he really think ALL the men who use his site could only ever be interested in a "size 3 trophy bride"? Because he talks as if there's only a weird minority of men who are open minded and understand the difference between love and lust...and indeed, that there are also quite a few men who find many sizes and shapes to lust after! This guy's insulting to fat people, to women, and to men! Wow. That takes talent. Oh well. I'm with quoda--boycott this mental midget, just like we boycott snooty desingers who are too stupid to see they could make a killing by selling plus-size clothing.
rebelle November 11th, 2005 | Link | And PS: a 5' 5" woman who's
And PS: a 5' 5" woman who's under 200 pounds isn't really all that fat. I'm shorter than herand when I was 175, I looked pretty small. Still, that's not the point: the point is, he's assuming all his male clientele are as shallow and immature as he and his staff member are.
ajoyce November 11th, 2005 | Link | I gather, though, that this
I gather, though, that this is not a dating service in the sense that, say, Match.com or Eharmony is. This is a high-fee "matchmaker" service for wealthy, image-conscious yuppies who spend so much time working that the only free time they have to meet someone is over lunch, and it's geared toward a much smaller, hand-picked clientele who the owners have probably all met face to face. Just a hunch, I'm guessing that they wouldn't accept a man who was 5'3" either, unless he was a billionaire. Or anyone who waited tables for a living. Give them credit for one thing: they could have taken this woman's money and given her a bunch of B.S. about what they could do for her, and then left her with nothing. I personally would never have bothered with such a service even if I had the money, because they're all about Perfect People who want Perfect Partners. And that's exactly how they want it: fewer clients, higher fees, more prestige, blah blah freaking blah. They're not even members of my species, frankly.
M November 11th, 2005 | Link | I largely agree with ajoyce
I largely agree with ajoyce in that the dating service may really only attract certain types of clients (you know, men who wouldn't want a woman over a size 6 who don't shop at Neiman Marcus, or women who don't want men who don't have their own yachts). And at least they didn't just take her money. On the other hand, as other people said, there's really no way of knowing whether or not another client would come along who would be willing to date an "obese" woman. The logic there could also be circular: they haven't had any men come in who wanted to date a heavier woman so they don't take in such women, but if they don't have the women available then men won't be able to express their preferences and therefore won't come to the dating service for those women. For example, I know that if I go into a hardware store I won't be able to buy chocolate. That doesn't mean that I don't like chocolate or that if Home Depot started selling Godiva I wouldn't buy it, it just means that I'm not buying it there because they're not letting me. The dating service (probably) isn't finding men who would date larger women because they're not offering men the option. Incidently, I wonder what the policy is on men who are overweight. What about women who are very tall - would a supermodel be rejected because there's no audience for a 6'2" woman? Another point that I personally found interesting is that they said "Whether it's age or body type, religion, hobbies, if someone asked us for something we can't do we try to be honest about it." I'm on the website JDate (it's a Jewish online dating service). If a person is on there they're looking for a Jewish significant other because that's the whole point of the service. But I've seen quite a few profiles of people who aren't Jewish (I remember one in particular who started his profile with "there's nothing wrong with not being Jewish"). However, JDate doesn't kick these people off, they're allowed a fair chance too, and if they don't find success on the site it's very easy to cancel a membership. I also wonder, what would the media coverage be like if the dating service said something like a black person couldn't join because there's no audience for ni**ers? Or if I couldn't join because there's no audience for k*kes? (Not sure what the policy is on words like that in here, so I figured it might be safer to do the censoring routine.) Where do they draw the line at what is and isn't an acceptable standard for members of the dating service?
ajoyce November 11th, 2005 | Link | My guess is that a guy can
My guess is that a guy can be as fat, black, Jewish and pagan as he wants to be, smell like expired patchouli toothpaste, and get around on a Rascal scooter and still be accepted into such a group...if he's got $$$$$ (beaucoup). The women, OTOH, must look good in a lucite display case, and weigh about as much, because that's where they're going to be spending most of their time. And we should feel bad about these people NOT accepting us? Ever hear the expression, "Rejection is protection"?
jlm November 11th, 2005 | Link | Quick question, then-would
Quick question, then-would the dating service have accepted her if she was filthy rich? I'm sure there are plenty of men in this 'enlightened' age who are just as interested in pair bonding for money instead of looking for a trophy wife.
DeeLeigh November 11th, 2005 | Link | Too busy to meet new people
Too busy to meet new people and tired of the bar scene, Traynor, 39, turned to LunchDates.com to meet someone. A personal chef by profession... Actually, I'd have thought that being a chef would be considered cool. I can easily imagine a rich guy wanting to date a curvy woman who cooks professionally. Aside from the possibility of getting great food on a regular basis, it's a time-flexible and portable profession that would make for good cocktail party conversation.
fatthought November 11th, 2005 | Link | What I'm wondering about
What I'm wondering about this is a) Did he shut her out on the basis of hearing/reading her weight, which as a number means less than nothing, without seeing her? b) Would all the men who use the site so definitely not be interested in a woman who was not a size 6, or is the owner of the site himself so prejudiced that he simply refused pointblank to sign her up without considering whether there might indeed be men who might find her attractive?
wicked November 11th, 2005 | Link | hmmm....having very recently
hmmm....having very recently been doing the online dating thing quite a lot etc., I have a different take on this... Now, assuming that it is ok to set up such dating services catering exclusively to rich people who want to hook up with the "beautiful" people (not my cup of tea but we do live in a free market blah de blah de blah...), then I almost think that what they did might even be the considerate thing to do(though I am sure they did it purely out of business motivations)... If you go online and search for reviews of matching/dating sites, you will see that the obnoxious truth is (something I have found out by bitter experience) many many men get very very resentful when they end up on a date with a woman over 150lbs (assuming you are anywhere between 5'0"-5'8")-and I think about 160 over that height... And slam the dating site...Obviously from a business pov that hurts them You can see them spew their venom on these review sites...and even from friends who are much smaller than me I hear this all the time..so its not even that they(the men) don't have an idea of the numbers..I have a friend who is 5'4" and 140lbs, who has been rejected by 4 guys (!!!) because the "physical chemistry" wasn't there due to her being "overweight"..... I see this as part of the overall problem with the way men are being tuned -I am honestly starting to believe this-now by society to think they are abnormal if they don't all like a 110lb girl.... And while putting up a profile or contacting other members (unless you are on a BBW site) there are many many men, who seem like nice people (not even the shallow jerk type guys) and even seem to be nice when you talk to them on the phone/over IM, who *just* will NOT consider-hell forget someone who is fat- someone who is not very small-medium, with respect to body type.. I agree with Andee Joyce..at least they didn't take her money and then have her meet a parade of jerks..sort of thing that just batters your self-esteem.. There are certainly plenty of nice men out there-but I am starting to think that they don't make their way to these dating sites...;0 Sorry about the overly long rant...
selkie November 11th, 2005 | Link | Wicked, I'm right there with
Wicked, I'm right there with you. I've had some horrible experiences with online dating sites, even with guys who insisted they liked BBW women... apparently just not as "B" as me. :P Even eHarmony, which is all, "we match your personality! (and charge you $50 a month)" had more than its share of guys who were actively avoiding overweight women--they were just more subtle about it. And don't get me started on BBW dating sites. No offense to anyone who enjoys them, but the prevalance of chatspeak, unreadable grammar, and guys and/or couples looking only for "discreet" sex is entirely too discouraging to me. I'm done with dating sites and services. If Prince or Princess Charming is meant to be, I'll find 'em.
saucebox November 12th, 2005 | Link | I also how love men say in
I also how love men say in their profiles that they're looking for a woman who is "fit", "active" and/or "in shape" as a euphemism for "no fat chicks." I'm 5'3" and weigh 138 pounds, wear a size 10, work out 4 times a week and am open to trying pretty much any outdoor or indoor activity with a guy I'm dating. I'm definitely fit, active and in shape, but that's not really what they're interested in, is it? Fact is that a woman of my height could be anywhere from 100 pounds to over 200 pounds and still be fit, active and in shape, but if she doesn't fit the stereotypical gym bunny body type, they ain't interested. In my personal case, there's a lot of men who would just hear the number 138 and run screaming the other way despite what I actually might look like, which is curvy and strong. I think lots of men, especially fat phobic ones, have really warped ideas of what certain weights and numbers actually look like on real women anyway.
melanie November 12th, 2005 | Link | What strikes me about this
What strikes me about this particular company (other than their appalling discrimination on the basis of size) is they purport to be a dating service for both men and women... and yet, as you read their FAQs etc, you really see that they are not a service into helping women find their future partners. Oh, no. Women are the commodity. I mean, they may pay, but everyone REALLY knows that it's the male clients who count.
MyssK November 12th, 2005 | Link | I have had great experiences
I have had great experiences on dating sites - in fact I met my husband through match.com. One thing I did was put something like "I am fat - if you can't handle that, then don't waste my time." I got a pretty good number of quality responses - I think that it screend out a lot of undesireables.
M November 12th, 2005 | Link | Sorry to post again! But to
Sorry to post again! But to add to what melanie said about women being the commodity, I know that some services/personals ads actually charge women either less or nothing. And furthermore: From the site in the FAQs: "At the end of their initial interviews, all LunchDates members are asked to prioritize the three main criteria of someone they want to meet. Overall it is not surprising to note that men placed a higher priority on physical appearance* than women , with 57% of men listing appearance as top priority, and only 27% of women doing the same." *My question there: who defines what constitutes the desired physical appearance? Have they actually questioned the men about what physical appearance they like, or is it based on the owner's ideals? From "Advantages over Internet Dating:" "Since we screen everyone in person, we stand by our matches by "guaranteeing the quality of every date."" So if I sign up, will they check the mens' tax returns to make sure that they're meeting my standards of income? Will they take my measurements and make sure for the mens' sake that I'm not padding my bra?
imfathowru November 12th, 2005 | Link | I'm going to start an online
I'm going to start an online dating service for women, where the only men allowed are men with penises larger than six inches. Size matters, right? Not really, but I was pissed so I had to say something. ;)
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | Six inches? Feh, that's
Six inches? Feh, that's nothing. Any loser can have six. Make it eight. Give 'em something to aspire to. I'm gonna reiterate what a very wise shrink said to me years ago, paraphrasing: Any guy who'd reject you because you're not attractive enough for him doesn't want a partner, he wants a slave. The woman who was 5'4", 140, and rejected four times for being "overweight" dodged four bullets, frankly. Imagine what she'd have to look at over the breakfast table every day if one of them actually liked her. Eeesh.
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | I can't believe it. My
I can't believe it. My "/snark" tag after the first sentence didn't show up when I posted!
bam November 12th, 2005 | Link | This is only tangentially
This is only tangentially related, but I still found it hilarious. On Wicked's recommendation, I've been reading reviews of eHarmony, and one fellow posted this as number three on his list of six things to watch out for: The obese. If there isn't a full length picture posted, beware! There seems to be a mindset out there that Christian guys don't have libidos and won't care that you're 100 pounds overweight. Nothing could be further from the truth! If someone hems and haws about posting a picture, consider that a big (no pun intended) red flag. The number five thing to watch out for? The too picky. This group is the worst of all. You read a profile, she seems attractive and has a lot going for her, and wham!, the match is closed. It seems for a guy online, his greatest crime is that he's not 6 feet tall. Ladies, rejecting a guy because he's not as tall as you'd like is the equivalent of a guy rejecting a woman because she doesn't have a big chest. Think about it. The truth is, many singles are still single because their standards are so high the person they're holding out for doesn't exist. I heard a great quote recently aimed towards single women: 'Some of you need to lower your physical standards, and at the same time raise your character standards.' Right on! Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot.
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | Well, you know...shorter
Well, you know...shorter guys get their panties in a wad because women won't date them, and then turn around and complain about all the fat chicks. Their reasoning is, "Well, they could lose weight, I can't get any taller." In response to that, I posted something on Craig's List once that went like this: "OK, well...suppose there was a way you could become six feet tall, but it would require that you be constantly hungry and work out like a demon for hours a day, every day, forever? In addition, you'd have to be in a constant state of panic that everywhere you went, something was going to jump into your mouth that would make you short again faster than you could say 'Mini-Me.' You'd have to plan every single thing you did, forever, around what you could and could not eat, and whether you did enough exercise to 'make up' for it. Would you go for it?" I received not one reply. Cowards.
paul November 12th, 2005 | Link | ajoyce: The snark tag didn't
ajoyce: The snark tag didn't show up because the page thought it was real HTML. :)
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | Stupid page.
Stupid page.
paul November 12th, 2005 | Link | Hey, HTML did a lot for you!
Hey, HTML did a lot for you! :)
M November 12th, 2005 | Link | In regards to the comparison
In regards to the comparison to short men, there is a surgery that people can get to make them taller. From what I've read, they break a bone in each leg and put in some kind of screw type mechanism that you turn however often so the bone heals being longer than it was before. It's supposed to be extremely painful, but at least it would cure the short men of their horrible affliction that makes them utterly socially unacceptable. And then "LunchDates" could find the men nice liposuctioned women to marry!
jmars November 12th, 2005 | Link | I once paid an exorbitant
I once paid an exorbitant amount of money to join a local "in-person" dating service (like LunchDates). I went on 3 dates, and really had no interest in dating any of the men again (nor, it turns out, were they interested in seeing me again, either). Given a choice between being told "sorry, the men in our service aren't interested in dating women your size" (I was about a size 20 at the time) and still having the money I paid to join, I think I'd have preferred to keep my money.
jmars November 12th, 2005 | Link | And WRT the comment someone
And WRT the comment someone made about the "clever" ways men try to disguise "No Fat Chicks" by saying things like "athletic," "fit," etc., my favorite was always "Weight must be proportionate to height." I always wanted to write to them and say "I don't tip over when I stand up, so I must meet your weight criteria, right?"
EmilyH November 12th, 2005 | Link | "I'm done with dating sites
"I'm done with dating sites and services. If Prince or Princess Charming is meant to be, I'll find 'em." Right. I've tried the dating sites and ended up with guys who were the opposite from me in terms of personality. Yet, when I was in college, I had a boyfriend, so go figure. I've had dates through friends trying to set me up. The guys were nice but there wasn't anything romantic there. Oh, and I'm a size 16. And a friend who weighs more than I do got engaged recently, so anything is possible. "And WRT the comment someone made about the "clever" ways men try to disguise "No Fat Chicks" by saying things like "athletic," "fit," etc., my favorite was always "Weight must be proportionate to height."" Right. The new cliche' seems to be "healthy." As if you can tell someone's health from their weight. Please.
jportnick November 12th, 2005 | Link | What Marty Sack is saying,
What Marty Sack is saying, in essence, is that fat people are unloveable. If he thought he could get a date for a fat person, he'd be doing it, because it would mean money in his pocket. But he's not willing to even try to match fat people up because they're unloveable and beyond help. At least, that's what I get from reading his quotes and also watching the video clip about this on cnn.com. If he were a smart business person (instead of a gooberish one) he would figure out a way to make this work. Why would you turn away 60% of the adult population from your enterprise? Even if it were true that fat people aren't dating material, wouldn't you want to find a way to reach out to that population? Stupid, stupid, stupid.
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | Love? Jennifer, whatever
Love? Jennifer, whatever gave you the idea that this enterprise had anything to do with love?
ajoyce November 12th, 2005 | Link | And having been active on
And having been active on several dating sites before meeting my current wonderful snugglebomb of 5+ months (the gagging may commence) on OKCupid.com...I have to agree that other than that geek-friendly exception, and the BBW sites that seem more geared towards folks looking for quickies, men on dating sites get flat out ANGRY when they find out they've been set up with a fat chick. Yes, ANGRY. Like it's an insult to their very manhood that anyone would think they'd have to settle for that. Fortunately, I never had anything like that happen to me (at least to my knowledge) because I was always crystal clear about what size I was in my ads and happily provided a recent full-length picture without even being asked to do so specifically. But crikey, you should see some of these guys on Craig's List palavering about just the fact that some of us fat chicks have the temerity to advertise, let alone contact them! I'm sure they are all lifelong abstemious nonsmokers, nondrinkers, non-drug-users, get plenty of sleep and exercise, manage stress brilliantly, and live on spirulina and organic baby food, too. You betcha. Perfect to the bone.
Maria November 12th, 2005 | Link | But can we also talk about
But can we also talk about status for a moment? I mean that fat women occupy a lower social scale than thin women. As a trophy, a fat woman is worth less than a thin women, and I think that men are being tuned, or their tastes are being crafted, to crave the trophy as a reflection of their own status. Yes, it's an obvious truism to most people here at BFB, but outside of BFB, it's news to the average person that thin entitlement is an incredibly powerful social force. And I also think that explains why so many men on on-line dating sites get hopping mad when they're matched with fat women. The men believe they're entitled to being paired with a person who is all that they've ever wanted and needed in a mate, and she must be thin too. It's no surprise to me that this LunchDates outfit rejected an otherwise good candidate on the basis of her weight/appearance. That's thin and male entitlement in action (though a lot of similar companies are run by women too). Like ajoyce, I think Roberta Traynor should thank her lucky stars that she was rejected. There are lot of other ways to meet people without compromising herself self-respect or dignity.
jenhuff November 13th, 2005 | Link | 99% of the men on dating
99% of the men on dating sites are not good-looking enough or rich enough to attract a woman who actually meets their standards. That is why they are on the dating site to start with - they have already struck out with every "desireable" woman they ever met. I expect there are some nice guys using dating sites out of shyness or living in an area with a small population etc., but I know that for any man not fixated on 110 lbs, double D boobs, and not too shy to ask, there are plenty of women to date almost anywhere.
fatthought November 13th, 2005 | Link | Actually, I think men who
Actually, I think men who use many dating services often lack social skills, especially that of conversation. That is why they are fixated on a certain kind of appearance to begin with.
turtlegurl November 13th, 2005 | Link | I do not do dating services,
I do not do dating services, though I did meet the love of my life online, quite by accident, when we fell over each other in a chat room nearly 7 years ago. However, it does seem as if many of these guys are the ones who, as fatthought says, lack social skills, are very shy & insecure, & are often the ones who have always been called nerd, geek, weirdo, etc., & shunned or even ridiculed by the pretty & popular girls. Sometimes I think they feel that they have something to prove & that if they could just land one of the "beautiful people" & get themselves a trophy to show off, they wouldn't be weird geeks anymore & people would respect them. Of course, the real problem is that they don't have any respect for themselves, they are insecure, as indeed anyone, however he looks, is insecure, immature, & shallow if he is only interested in how a potential partner looks. It certainly has been my experience that you cannot tell how mature, open-minded, & accepting a man will be by how he looks. The man who loves me is was a very popular high school jock, & is still tall, dark, lean, athletic & handsome; he has had a lot of the "pretty" girls in his past. He however has never blinked an eyelash about my size, looks, age, or my cerebral palsy, & I am over 9 years his senior. Of course, we were not looking for love, we met & fell in love accidentally, but I was, since that is who I am, always totally honest & upfront with him about who I am & what I look like from the beginning & we fell in love from the inside out. My looks/size/disability have often been an issue for ME, an issue he has helped me to resolve with his love, support, understanding, & his complete devotion to me, but those things were never an issue for Ken. He has lived long enough & experienced enough to learn the hard way (by marrying the "right" kind of wife the first time, etc.) that what's inside is what really matters & to broaden his concept of beauty & sexiness. He is also very self-confident, more comfortable with & at home in his body than anyone I have ever known, & he takes his good looks for granted, just as he does his athletic abilities or his talents with technology, etc. So, just for the record, they are not ALL shallow jackasses, & you cannot judge who will be one by what he looks like. My experience has also been that, as others have observed, most men have no real idea what a woman weighs or what a woman of a certain weight or dress size is supposed to look like. I am 5'6" & 180-185, & people (but men moreso than women) constantly tell me that I can't weigh over 150 pounds or so, because I look so "normal" or "attractive", & I know that, while I have been on the receiving end of a lot of ignorant remarks regarding my CP, I have never gotten rude remarks from strangers about my weight. I get the impression that most men in this culture are socialized & conditioned from everything they see & read in the media to believe that any woman who weighs over 150 pounds must look like the Bride of Godzilla.
missirony November 14th, 2005 | Link | I'm new to this community,
I'm new to this community, but I've been reading the blog for a bit. I have recently gone from a size 30 to about a size 14-16. I'm tall, so I tend to carry it pretty well, so people often think I'm even a bit smaller than that. But I'm still far from the "tits on a stick" ideal. Tall, broad shoulders, athletic body ... it's what I have to work with. The reality is: dating does change when you get thinner. I hate that it does, but it does. And yet, dating services are *still* not somewhere I've had any luck in finding people to date. When I was a size 30, I had my profile up and the only guys I heard from where the predatory types who figured the fat chick was an easy lay or guys who were so insecure that they figured no one else would go out with them. Neither of those is particulary attractive to me. At my smaller size, I got some more attention, but for the most part the guys I found interesting/attractive based on their profiles were also body type nazis. Even though it's quite possible some of those guys would have found me attractive had they met me in person, because I didn't fit into their rigid weight requirements, they never contacted me, and I didn't waste my time writing to them. I went on a few dates here and there and for the most part, they were decent guys; just never clicked with anyone. I met my current boyfriend and the last few guys I've dated casually through a sport I love, and the community (both offline and online) that surrounds it. The chance to be me, all me, and be judged on the entireity of me ... body, mind, and soul, is where I have met with success in dating. To bring this back on topic: dating services, both online and offline, both allow and encourage people to be shallow. You have tens, hundreds, even thousands of possibilities (or so it seems); you have to weed them out some way. So you go for your ideals. And, fact is, in our society, as has been said, men are programmed to believe that thin = ideal. But to everyone who's commented on the fact that women are conditioned to believe that tall (or at least taller) = ideal ... I'd like to raise my hand and say "Guilty as charged!" And guess what ... my current boyfriend is 5'8", 2 inches shorter than me. Had I seen him on an online dating service I would have browsed on by. But by meeting and getting to know him in person, I was attracted anyway. And I'm getting over the whole "guy must be taller than me" thing. But the fact is, society has conditioned me to believe that for 34 years, so it's actually taking me some time to deprogram myself. I don't know if it was "right" for the dating service to tell the woman she couldn't become a member; in some bizarre way it's honorable for them not to take her money. I wonder if they'd do the same for the 5'4" man, though?
michelle November 14th, 2005 | Link | The online dating world even
The online dating world even has its own language about the the avoidance of non-thin women, one term being "sif", meaning, "secret internet fatty". There are scores of places where men can post their tips on how to avoid "sifs" and how to detect them ahead of time because, we are led to believe, they are on the prowl and trying to fool men into dating them. Ahem. I did some reseach for a paper I wanted to write in e-dating and found some interesting information. People polled as to what the disadvantages were of online dating showed a remarkable gender divide: women almost unanimously replied that the men were deceitful as to their real intentions (wanting physical relationships but posing as serious), and/or being dishonest about being married and men unanimously complained that the number one problem with online dating is that "women are not attractive enough" and "too many fat chicks [sifs]". I am just appalled. Is this how low men as a group have sunk? The idea that women only want tall men is I believe men's projections to justify their own looksism. No comments were made about "the men are too short". And anyway, what in god's name is up with the "full body shot" thing? Why would someone need to see that before agreeing to date someone? This is probably best left to the forums at this point though.
samus November 14th, 2005 | Link | If women only want tall men
If women only want tall men then why do so many women like Gael García Bernal or Tom Cruise? Gael is about the size of my hamster!Takeshi Kaneshiro is slightly taller, but not "tall" by any western standard.
ajoyce November 14th, 2005 | Link | They all look six feet tall
They all look six feet tall on camera, Samus.
ajoyce November 14th, 2005 | Link | And I'd love to know just
And I'd love to know just how knockout gorgeous all these guys are who complain about the women not being attractive enough!
DeeLeigh November 14th, 2005 | Link | I think that some men
I think that some men want/expect women to look like airbrushed advertising and porn models, and nobody really looks like that. They even feel like they're compromising if they accept a normal-looking thin woman. That's probably why they're single. I'm a bit puzzled about why men who care so much about appearance would be looking for dates online at all, though. Wouldn't they be better off with venues where they can SEE potential partners? Perhaps, as it's been suggested, they're not much to look at themselves.
Maria November 15th, 2005 | Link | Again, it goes back to
Again, it goes back to entitlement and status. Regardless of what they say they're looking for in a natural mate, a lot of online daters I've found will ONLY settle for the trophy mate. A good-looking blonde with bit tits, who wears a size 4 or 6 or maybe 8, and who is reasonably educated yet non-threatening will do just fine for many on-line daters. Many men have been led to believe that this type, and only this type, is what they deserve, and is will make them most happy. Fat women do not fit into this equation. Some men, after a while, throw off the conditioning and learn to look past the externalities. But, sadly I've found, that is asking a lot. This type of growth takes time, maturity, insight, and pain. And, as has been said, many men just don't have it within themselves to change the way they perceive their own status or the status of fat, fabulous women.
turtlegurl November 15th, 2005 | Link | And, for that matter, there
And, for that matter, there are plenty of women who do not look beyond the externals either...whether it is a man's height, his looks, or, as is more common, his income, social status, & material possessions. I know that it's the 21st century & we are supposed to be more independent & liberated than that, but I still know of plenty of women (of course, I am 56 & perhaps there are fewer of these women in the under-30 crowd) who married their husbands because they were presentably attractive, came from a good family background of the right social status, have good careers with solid incomes, & can provide a lovely home & comfortable standard of living & a good position in the community. For some people of both genders, marriage is apparently a fleshed-out version of Barbie & Ken in the dream house with the pink Corvette, being "perfect" people, having the right number of "perfect" children (then never touching each other again once that has been accomplished), meeting the expectations of their parents & peers, & putting on a great show of having the "perfect" life. Sometimes it is asking a great deal of both genders to grow up & develop heart, depth of soul, strength of character, wisdom, & compassion. However, it is possible, it does happen, & you sure as hell cannot tell which people with whom it will happen based on looks. And I do have to agree that it has been my experience that, very often, the men who are the most demanding & have the highest expectations are guys who are very ordinary-looking, sometimes almost trollish-looking. Men who do not do well in real-life relationships, who have been rejected a lot, or whose sex lives have mostly consisted of watching porn films or looking at skin mags while having a meaningful relationship with themselves tend not to be very realistic in their expectations of what a woman they would date or marry should be like. Sometimes the ones who have been around a lot, done a lot, lived a very full & adventurous life, & made some mistakes along the way, have learned that there is more to life than looks, have decided "been there, done that", & know that they want & need more. As Maria says, though, it doesn't happen overnight, it is a long & painful process, one which usually requires that a man will be in his mid-30's or even over 40 before it really happens. And unfortunately it never happens for some people.
thelmarose November 15th, 2005 | Link | As much contempt as I have
As much contempt as I have for the insecure, pathetic men who think their dates should be as scrawny and airbrushed as magazine pictures (my own fat brother included), I feel compelled to point out that it's an awful lot to ask such men to become more evolved and broaden their criteria for attractiveness when so many of us right here at BFB are apparently struggling with this issue from day to day. After all, one of the current forum threads is, "Can a large/fat woman be pretty?" If we even have to ask ourselves this and discuss it, then we are generations away from being able to expect most non-SA folks to answer that question in the affirmative. I'm not trying to pick on fat people who don't feel attractive. Nor do I wish to defend the misogynist bone-worshippers. But we all experienced more or less the same socialization, and obviously fat folks have a lot more motivation to overcome that socialization than some of the jerks in the personal ads.
fatthought November 16th, 2005 | Link | Actually, Thelmarose, I
Actually, Thelmarose, I started the thread "Can a large/fat woman be pretty" with the intention of showing that they indeed can be. Unfortunately men who are not independent-minded enough to develop their own tastes and needs apart from their peer group, whatever that may be, often end up going along with the very mainstream culture's valuation of what women should be because they have no other guidelines and are not mature, experienced, or intelligent enough to question those ideals.
turtlegurl November 16th, 2005 | Link | Yes, Thelmarose, obviously
Yes, Thelmarose, obviously those of us who are "different" in some way have more motivation to overcome the socialization & work for acceptance & to develop some self-esteem & a sense of entitlement to a full life, including a full sex/love life, than many other people do. I am disabled as well as somewhat fat, I used to wear Coke bottle glasses until I had cataract surgery & lens implants, & I grew up as a virtual pariah, ridiculed, rejected, called weirdo/nerd/freak/cripple & worse things. I know what it takes to overcome that conditioning, including therapy & Al-Anon meetings in my case, & I know that I have also had to work hard myself to overcome the messages of the culture that only people who look certain ways, male OR female, can be attractive. I even understand the motivations of some of the socially inept geeks who probably use a lot of personals ads, since I recall that one of my greatest wishes for years was to land one of the "gorgeous, popular guys" so that I could "show" all those who abused & rejected me that I was as good as they were, etc. Ironically enough, it is only since I became in fat acceptance & gave up dieting & really started working on accepting & loving my natural body that I have begun to feel somewhat confident & secure, to see myself as sexy & beautiful & worthy of as many good things as anyone else is. I am doing all this while weighing about 30 pounds more than that unhappy, lonely girl who wanted to "show everyone". It has taken 40 years, though, so it is hardly an overnight cure. We are all beautiful & unique & there are indeed people who will find us attractive, whoever we may be. A lot more men do desire larger women than are confident enough to make it publicly known, then there are the others who are just mature & secure & confident enough to fall in love with a human being, not a dress size, & love someone because of who she is. Sometimes reading the personals ads makes it hard to remember that this is true.
turtlegurl November 16th, 2005 | Link | I also wanted to add that
I also wanted to add that one thing which often makes it difficult for a man to show interest in/attraction to a fat woman is not just the attitudes of others, but the attitudes of fat women themselves. Many fat women internalize the cultural message that fat is ugly & unattractive, & I have seen/heard fat women say that they don't want a guy who likes fat girls, "because if a man really is attracted to fat women, there must be something wrong with him, he must be some kind of weirdo." Some even make the jump of some kind of convoluted logic & assume that any man who loves fat women must be a feeder or a predator, & very often that is far from the truth. It takes a great deal of courage & some measure of self-confidence for anyone in this culture to come out as an admirer of those with a currently demonized body type, & it is even more difficult if & when we ourselves agree with the culture that we are ugly & unloveable & that no one but some kind of loser would want us.
thelmarose November 16th, 2005 | Link | Hey, fatthought and
Hey, fatthought and turtlegurl-- I completely agree with both of you. Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it sounds like maybe you are trying to convince me of something? I knew why you started that thread, fatthought, and the fact that you did shows that you know as well as I do that not all fat people *do* think that fat women are or can be attractive, or we wouldn't need to discuss it. Believe me, I know as well as anyone here what it is to struggle to break free of fat hatred and self-loathing; aside from the occasional fleeting thought, my struggle is over, and I'm with everyone in solidarity on their own SA journeys. But I do think we have to try get our own house in order as much as possible before we start casting too many stones at the "HWP" morons in the personal ads and their ilk. One reason I think it hurts so much is that, as you eloquently point out, turtlegurl, so many fat women secretly agree with the jerks' assessment of our figures. I realize it's not easy for everyone, but if we feel strong and sexy, then it *really* doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, because we *know* we're hot/invincible/loveable/whatever. I know this may be easy for me to say because I'm married and I'm not out there in the trenches, but I spent most of my life out there, and I know exactly what it's like. And even though I find nerds and geeks devastatingly attractive (pluses for shyness, insecurity, being Jewish--I'm a shiksa--or wearing glasses), my biggest heartbreaks have been at the hands of insecure nerds who would always tell me that I was just 5 or 10 pounds too heavy to be perfect. It's actually the self-confident jocks and alpha males who have never hurt me, and have appreciated me and found me sexy at 20 or 30 or 50 pounds over the "ideal." I'm now married to my ideal, a shy, insecure, sweet, adorable geek, but he never tries to cut me down to his size. As a movement we have to find ways to help people overcome their internalized self-hatred. I think that we will really catch fire when we reach a critical mass of people who are immunized against the prevailing fat hatred by their certainty that they are fabulous human beings, inside and out.
turtlegurl November 17th, 2005 | Link | Your points are beautifully
Your points are beautifully stated, Thelmarose, & I am happy that have found the right man for you, as I have. Ironically, when I stopped looking, I did end up falling in love with the tall, handsome, popular, confident jock, but I love him for who he is, not what he looks like. I have been the rather shy, insecure, very gentle & sweet geek in our relationship & gradually the sense of security is growing & I have lots of days now when I look in the mirror & see a beautiful woman & I honestly have no desire to lose any weight or look like anyone else, however much the media may try to tell me that someone has "the look" that sells. Being yourself & unique is much better than cultivating some "look." I think that most of us also find that, as we like ourselves better & see ourselves as truly worthy, we care much less what anyone else thinks of our choices. That is obviously true of my guy, as I suspect it must be of the out & proud fat admirers.
Pollux November 23rd, 2005 | Link | I am not especially
I am not especially attracted to shorter men. I'm only 5 foot 2 but I prefer men to be at least 6 feet tall. I have a bigger problem with bald or balding men. on eHarmony, they have a "Can't Stand" which say something like, "I can't stand someone who is overweight..." but they don't have one for "I can't stand someone who is bald or balding". Is that fair? I can't really help it that I'm turned off by short/balding men. This doesn't mean I would not date one if he was a really nice guy and truly cared about me. It's just one of my preferences. But women's criteria for male attractiveness never seems to be taken seriously or looked at in depth on these sites. I think they are skewed to help men find the women they want rather than the other way around.
fatthought November 24th, 2005 | Link | Pollux, you hit the nail on
Pollux, you hit the nail on the head. The preferences/wishes/fantasies of women of all sizes are not really taken into account on dating sites (which is one of the reasons I have not used them - that, and the fact that when I took their tests and listed *my* preferences, two sites said that I was unmatchable..heheh). Maybe we need a site that would take the preferences of *women* into account for a change - fat women, thin women, women of all sizes and shapes and persuasions!

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