Mike & Juliet Video Analysis: Part Two
Back on Tuesday I started off the day with a point-by-point analysis of this past Monday's Mike & Juliet Show, which featured Rachel of The F Word and Monique of Big Fat Deal. Now, for your reading pleasure, I present part two.
Follow along with the video here at Shapely Prose.
- "Is it possible to be fat and fit?" Yes, Mike.
- The movement has changed to include "big is beautiful...": Not quite true. In my opinion this has been a part of the movement from day one. Fat acceptance has a big umbrella over it and to suggest that this isn't a part of the movement is just ignorant.
- "...a glorification of obesity...": I'll say it's true. Here's why. Roth is using ten dollar words to essentially say the same thing she just said. She may be going for the clinical aspects (ie, "Man, these people think it's awesome to have [random disease maybe falsely associated with fat]! OMG!") But I'm going to veer the other way with the disclaimer that, of course, health at every size is under the fat acceptance umbrella and, of course, you can be discriminated against due to your size despite of your health.
- "...somehow obesity and feminism are connected...": Uh, yeah, they are. My guess is that Roth is trying to pull a fast one here and use feminism as a dirty word, thus building support for her cause. "Man, those feminists... I hate them... and those fat people too! She's right!" It's very important to note that while fat is a feminist issue like most feminist issues it also affects men and transgendered folks. Thus, as fat rights advance so do the rights of people of all genders.
- "I don't think we're saying, 'Hey everybody be fat, we're awesome!'": Why aren't we saying 'we're awesome'? Sorry, Mo, but I've gotta take issue with this - at least over here at my end of the umbrella. (Sorry I chose that metaphor.) One of the end goals, in my opinion, of the movement is to help people love their bodies - and gee, wouldn't it be great if people could say that? Not the "let's everyone be fat" part, but the "we're awesome" part. Because we are awesome. We should also totally allow people to be fat if that's what they want, or that's what their bodies want. Beyond acceptance there's fat pride and I think that's a totally laudable and valuable goal to shoot for.
- "I'm thinking about kids... [they might see you and think] 'It's okay to be chubby.'": Uh, yeah? Man, Mike brought his F-game, didn't he?
- "[Acceptance] absolutely starts with loving yourself.": Bingo. Great point, Mo.
- "We're talking about the middle range here... not the very thin and not the morbidly obese.": For pete's sake, Doctor, where's the "morbidly thin" phrase? If you're going to drag "morbidly obese" out you might as well go all out. Worse, health at every size includes people of every size. There are things people of all sizes can do, if they like, to be healthy.
- "Don't eat white food.": LOL. Where'd this come from? Here's a small clue: it looks like it's a "diet" with no backer, no sponsor, nothing. It'd be like if I just made up the "no aqua" diet right now. Further, the Doctor claims white foods (pasta, bread) have "no nutritional value." You can decide how absurd that statement is.
- "If you want to eat a pound of whole wheat pasta, that's better for you than a pound of regular pasta.": LOL. One pound of pasta is 4-6 servings. Pasta is filling. People might eat a pound of pasta, and that's okay!, but this is just a variation on a point Rachel brought up earlier - working against the stereotype that fat people eat Twinkies all day. Pound of pasta, pound of Twinkies.
- "Don't drink your calories.": LOL with an asterisk. I think I understand where she was going with this, but it's still absurd out of context. Did you know that milk (white food) has calories? So does coffee. So does juice. And tea (although it's about 5 or so.) In essence, the Doctor is saying, "Drink lots of water" in a new, hip way.
- "Don't drink things with calories in them." "Especially alcohol." "...Well, in moderation.": No comment.
- "Get enough sleep.": LOL. This is good advice in general, but associating it with weight loss is just another scare tactic.
- "It's not black and white.": True. You can't determine a person's health by looking at her or him. Period.
Again, a round of applause to Rachel and Mo for a job well done.
Just Because I Could | Israeli Fatosphere Article: I'm Average!
Posted by paul on January 31, 2008
I'm still kind of blown away that they would end a segment about fat acceptance with tips on how not to get fat. The show producer seemed to really get it over the phone, but I wish she could have sent a memo to the clueless hosts.
3) 'Obesity' is something they made up, they are 'glorifying' it, in the negative, for their own ends, we glorify and celebrate ourselves and our bodies as fat people. 'Obese' is their thing.
4) I agree there should be, but that doesn't stop them having the same shitty attitudes to us as anyone else. To me you cannot predict a person's attitude to fat based on their politics, I think fairs fair, if this was a left/ right thing I'd say so, it isn't.
11) I think we ought to put the doc in touch with the 'eat soup weigh less' people.
13) This made me smile, if we are supposed to be lazy, why would we need more rest? It reminds me of people that tell you to keep cutting calories, when they hear how little some fat people eat tell them, you are fat because you eat too little. How long can they keep this up do you think?
Funny, I was driving along yesterday thinking about the whole food thing, and it suddenly clicked that she said you can eat a pound of whole wheat spaghetti. An entire pound? Like, for dinner? I didn't think the glycemic index of whole wheat spaghetti was that much better than white spaghetti, and that's pretty much what I look at when I'm eating stuff, whether or not I'm balancing out the starchy stuff with other things like fat, protein, fiber and different micronutrients. So honestly, I know tend to eat less pasta, but put more stuff on it, like veggies or meat, over top whatever sauce I have.
Yeah, and I just rolled my eyes at the if kids see fat people not being villified, they'll all want to be fat part. Whatever.
Good point about the term morbidly obese and there not being a counterpart, morbidly thin. I actually use the term morbidly obese to describe myself, not because I like it, but because I want others to understand what the term is describing. But if we are just basing this on statistics of longevity, there should be a morbidly underweight designation as well.
This is actually a comment about the green room discussion posted elsewhere, but I just had to say that the thing that really made me insane was when MMR went off about how we all know that diets don't work and are harmful and make people heavier. I mean, I'm glad she realizes this, but what the hell is her answer, then, for those of us who are fat? Should we just do the decent thing and go blow our heads off to spare her the pain of seeing us on the street? Somehow I think that the overall effect on the children would be slightly worse, if that's the case.
Since 800 of us die each day, she won't have to worry for long. Anyone willing to do the math here? Math isn't my forte.
US population: 301,139,947
%age of "overweight" or "obese": 66, per Roth
US population that falls into that category: 198,752,366
Divided by 800 = 248,440 days
That's 680 more years of fat. SOUND THE ALARM!
(Of course, this assumes that the %age is staying flat at 66% and that there's no population growth... maybe a mathematician can step in and do the Real Calculations.)
4. Meme comes of as astoundingly anti-feminist, and has just barely come short of saying stay thin and sexually active for your husband (i'd look it up, but i'm having a bad day, and i don't wanna read through her blog to find it.) So, I'm not surprised she's bringing up feminism as a dirty word.
9. White food, does this include white meat too? Or how about unbleached organic AP flour? Oh, and potatoes are extremly nutritious, low in callories, and fat free (naked, and not fried of course) Then again I'm also strongly pro-carbohydrates.
11. So diet soda good, orange juice bad? This breaks my logics.
"Should we just do the decent thing and go blow our heads off to spare her the pain of seeing us on the street? "
Some people do think we should. That's why it's so important to fight this fight.
The only people to use the word "fat" - and I am not 100% sure they did - would be Mo and Rachel. The others steered entirely clear of the word, choosing epithets like "morbidly obese," "obese," or the supposedly less offensive "chubby." Thin people don't say fat much like white people don't say the n word. (I don't think white people should use it, but I'm pointing to their thinking here.)
I'd like to say one thing. Fat is of course a feminist issue but fat is not uniquely a feminist issue. Also, when you say that like other feminist issues, it also affects men and transgendered, you're essentially saying woman = feminist, but that's not accurate. Most feminists may be women, but it's not necessarily true that most women are feminists, and definitely not all women are.
I'm glad you're addressing the "big is beautiful" thing because that was bothersome. Rachel and Mo could not have addressed the aesthetics without getting into a big fat cauldron of subjective derailment. They had to stick with the points they did.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
True, and I don't deny that; for my purposes, though, I took the assumption that most feminists are women.
I actually explained to both the show producer and in the pre-recorded interview at my home that I prefer the word fat. All of the euphemisms they used - hefty, ballooned, people of size - actually offend me far more than the simple word fat.
First of all, I'm a long time lurker, but this may be my first post. Rachel and Monique brought me out of the closet, so to speak
Awesome interview, and with a few thousand more like it, we may really start changing some minds. But on this journey, single steps to get started are incredibly important.
I found Roth's conflation of fat and feminism to be inappropriate in this case, but I have often wondered what fat acceptance has to do with feminism. I see a link as being that many of the people fighting for one cause are also fighting for the other. I also understand feminism's ideal of valuing people by their character rather than their gender, but I still see fat and feminism as totally separate issues.
I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I felt growing up as a fat guy was nearly unendurable. In discussions with "feminists" I have been scolded many times that I have no idea what it's like to be fat and female. (I have a hard time understanding why people even attempt to try to compare pain, it seems quite silly.) Conflating fat and feminism, it would seem to me, leads to two classes of fat people. Those represented by the movement (women) and those marginalized by the movement (men.)
I do have to say that most of the top fat bloggers have been quite inclusive in their postings. However, many of the comments wind up marginalizing men. (fortunately nothing so far in this thread.)
Well, since my blog is built around the intersection of fat and feminism, here's my two cents.
Feminism has become somewhat of a misnomer - I think gender studies would probably be more accurate of a term. Throughout the my women's studies classes, the idea of the cultural and social construction of gender was predominant. I see fat as a feminist issue because it transgresses socially acceptable images of what is masculine and what is feminine - women are supposed to be thin, beautiful sex objects and men are supposed to be strong, rugged and muscle-bound.
Beneath the umbrella of feminism, I also see a emphasis on equal rights, not just for women, but for all minority groups. And just as women should have control over their reproductive capacity, so too should fat people have a right to exert control over their health, and not be subject to negative influences pressuring them to conform to some thin ideal.
I think feminism is large enough to combat not just oppression towards women, but oppression towards any group of marginalized peoples.
Omnifrog,
You seem to think that feminism marginalizes men. One reason (of many) that fat acceptance and feminism are related is because fat is often associated with femininity in men. It's gendered such that many fat men are perceived to be less "manly" than men with less fat, and so men's fear of fat is often linked to a fear of being perceived as feminine (because we live in a messed up sexist society that keeps men in place with this type of stuff). And that is a feminist cause, because it devalues women and puts women at risk as it harms men.
Second, fat acceptance is a feminist issue because fat women experience far greater discrimination than fat men in the workplace, in social settings, etc. That is a consistent finding of social research.
Third, fat acceptance is a feminist issue because the anti-fat propaganda has mostly (though not entirely) focused on women, telling women that they should be small, take up less space. Go look at magazines geared toward women and men for the past few decades, and it will be apparent to you. Look at who weight loss programs have historically targeted.
I'm sure others will pipe up with further insights, but fat acceptance grew from the feminist movement back in the 70s for good reason. Of course men suffer as well, but to deny the misogyny that underlies even how fat men are treated ignores some huge systemic aspects of this battle.
GiniLiz -
Your first paragraph is insightful, although I've often thought of fet leading to a desexualizing of men (and women), rather than feminization.
It's your second point that I take issue with and that directly leads to the feeling of alienation that some fat men (including me) feel from the FA movement. It's an attempt to compare pain. As a fat teen, I heard many statements like yours and when you have a knife to your wrist, largely due to social isolation, and someone comments that girls have it harder, it's hard not to feel resentful towards the feminist movement.
Kate Harding blogged something very insightful about this issue today:
"I’ve gotten the sense, over the last few years, that while it’s much worse to be a fat woman in America, fat men are actually subject to more overt comments by members of the public. But I could be wrong about that."
She's speaking about the first time she was openly ridiculed by strangers in a public place. What I read into her comment is that it really can suck to be fat... period.
II have always doubted the implications that statistics have in social science as it inherently marginalizes individuals that don't fit into the dominant suffering group.
As for the historical perspective; since the sexual revolution the value of a man's appearance has been increasing quite steadily. As a fat 30 year old living in San Francisco, I am very aware that I am fat, from the billboards to the people I see when I'm out to the way I've been treated at job interviews. History does not matter, otherwise my people would still be complaining about our time in Egypt (wait, I guess we actually still do!) What has happened is that attitudes towards fat men have changed far more rapidly than the feminist movement.
Unrelated: Omnifrog, I just wanted to say welcome to BFB.
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"A diet counselor once told me that all overweight people are angry with their mothers and channel their frustrations into overeating. So I guess that means all thin people are happy, calm, and have resolved their Oedipal entanglements."
Fat is also associated with feminity in the minds of many women, which is one of the reasons many feminists have such a problem with fatness. Fatness also has some different meanings in lesbian subcultures expressing a woman's masculine side, which is possibly part of the reason why the fat feminists did not made much headway in the past as there used to be a lot more friction between straight and gay feminists.
Actually, Omnifrog, the post on Kate's blog you're referring to is a guest post by M. LeBlanc of Bitch Ph.D. Kate herself didn't write that.
I have noticed a paucity of men who blog about fat acceptance, other than of course Paul here and Brian of Red No. 3. I'd like to see more of them do it. There are multiple aspects to FA, and the feminist one is just one of them. If you start a blog about it you should let FatFu (my coblogger) know about it and she can add you to the Fatosphere feed.
But hell yeah I think it's a feminist issue. I certainly think a woman has to be far less fat than a man to catch abuse for it, because women tend to feel much more pressure to be decorative objects in order to simply be allowed to live their lives. The vast majority of people who go in for gastric bypass are female, although there are equal people of both sexes who "qualify" and even the most "morbidly obese" women live longer than so-called "ideal weight" men. That's not to say that men don't have any weight-related abuse or problems, but we do tend to hear about it a lot more from the women. (And no, I do not consider it a sign of progress that men are starting to "catch up." I want it to go away completely, not be spread around equally between genders.)
She assumes because the diet industry wants us to all be thin that fat people will want us all to be fat. It's impossible to make ANY major, pruposeful weight change and maintain it...whether it is from thin to fat or fat to thin. Duh. Just because we refuse to strive to be thin does not mean that we want everybody to be fat.