Mike & Juliet Video Analysis: Part One
There's certainly been other news in the fatosphere over the past few days but it's arguable that anything has been as visible as the appearance of Rachel and Monique on The Morning Show with Mike and Juliet. Sure sure, it's not Today - but it's still some national exposure.
As I watched the segment I noticed a number of points that were great, incorrect, debatable, or just good for discussion. I'd like to share those with you.
Sit back, grab some white foods, and join me.
I'm following along with part one of the video here.
- "The fatosphere, a new online community...": False. While the term "fatosphere" was invented last year, pro-fat blogs and pro-fat websites have been around for many, many years. This little website you're reading right now turns 8 years old in August. Not new. Although, new to a lot of people. I am absolutely willing to give praise to folks like Rachel and Kate Harding who have built up smart, witty, and awesome communities around their sites.
- "Rachel's results were incredible!": Uh!? Both The Wife and I were taken aback by the way this line was delivered in the voiceover about Rachel's weight loss - after all, she had anorexia. It was like, "Wow! Anorexia means a 175 pound weight loss!!!" Ugh.
- "...and one year ago, [Rachel] gave birth to a blog...": The way this shot was framed, showing Rachel typing and then her stomach, I really thought they were going to say, "one year ago, Rachel give birth to a baby." Really. (And there's no way to make blogging look good on TV. Wow, scrolling!)
- "The President of National Action Against Obesity": Mind you, this organization - insofar as I can tell - consists of one person and that's MeMe Roth.
- "I bet a lot of people say, 'Look at [Rachel] - she's unhealthy." Nothing "wrong" with this statement, I guess, except that it sounded ass-y.
- "We'll have 75% overweight or obese in this country by 2015": Maybe true, but deceptively portrayed. This stat came from a metastudy which concluded that if Americans continue to gain weight at the same pace they have, that'll be the case. But here's the thing: 66% are already there. Saying 75% out of thin air (excuse the pun) without a reference point makes it sound as if it's just out of control.
- "Can you imagine if the [NY Times article] headline was 'Thin' and 'Skinny' rather than 'Fat' and 'Big'? The outcry would have been immediate and thunderous.": Roth said this as an "OMG WE'RE ACCEPTING FAT!!!" point. But you know what? The 7,464 articles currently on Google News about weight loss - versus just 9 for fat acceptance - don't seem to suggest we're accepting fat. If there was an article in the NY Times about thin being accepted, it would be a normal day. This is a huge misstatement on Roth's part. Surprise?
- "We lose about 200 lives a year to anorexia": Questionable. Couldn't find a source for this. I saw estimates as low as 150 and as high as 800, but not 200.
- "With obesity, we lose 800 lives every day.": Totally false. That equals 292,000 per year. But there's no study I've seen that has that number. In fact, you might recall that the CDC erred with their original estimate... by 14 times. The number of deaths attributable to fat each year is 25,814 - or 70 per day if you want to be dramatic. Roth totally fabricated this and wasn't called out by anyone.
- "We can't look on height and weight... look at the BMI.": False. This is brought up by the doctor as a way to gauge health. But, hello, BMI directly involves height and weight. It's the same thing. As for the reliability of the BMI, that too is bogus. It's an unreliable measure that leans solely on weight and height.
- "There is no black and white answer to health.": True, but it's hypocritical to say this immediately after saying a BMI of 30 is bad, and the BMI is a useful indicator of health.
- "The BMI changed overnight.": Totally true. It happened ten years ago, and 25 million Americans became "overweight" overnight. Ridiculous, and shows how useless the BMI is.
So there you have it, part one of the video. Part two's analysis will include a fun look at feminism, white foods, and husbands.
In all, though, I want to say that I was extremely impressed with both Rachel and Monique. They came off as articulate, polished, and reasonable versus the "anything goes" attitude of Roth and Ashton.
Mike & Juliet Video! | The Health Institute for Nutrition
Posted by paul on January 29, 2008
Thanks for the support everyone. It really did mean a lot to me and, I imagine, to Mo, to know we have this huge community in support of us.
Looking back at the show now, there were some comments made that I wish I had picked up on. I actually didn't hear some of the things the doctor said even though she was just three people away from me. And let me tell you... it was so hard to interrupt anyone and the few times I did so, it was because I got lucky. The show's hosts kept interrupting and derailing the conversation from where I thought it ought to go. And then, all of a sudden, it was wrap-up time. The producer told me we would have 10 minutes, break, and then have five more, but it didn't work out like that. Praying to get out of debt was just much more important a conversation to have, I guess.
And I absolutely hated that they ended a segment about fat acceptance with tips on how not to get fat. Mo and I and our thin husbands went out and promptly broke everyone of the good doctor's rules.
The "incredible results" sent me through the roof, too. Thanks for doing this, Paul.
Wow, Rachel, I don't see how you could have done any better. Had you interrupted more, you would have been viewed as, well, an uppity fat chick and then you would have been marginalized for that. There was no way you could have addressed everything that was brought up. You picked, you chose, you didn't hear the good doctor because you were formulating your responses to some other lame comment. You were sooooooo together, girl. You kept your cool. You made as many good points in the time allotted as you could. You wasted no time whatsoever.
And Monique, you were great too. Very calm, reasonable. You were spot on in your response to the line of, "Should we let girls in high school accept themselves fat?" Good Lord. I am so proud that you didn't just jump up and smack their heads together. I'm sure I would have.
Meme and her pinched face and whiney voice did not advance her cause any yesterday. She spouted the same old same old. I'm sure people tuned her out. The doctor didn't say much of anything either. BUT Rachel and Monique, you probably hit a lot of people with a message they haven't heard before. And you represented the cause so well. Don't spend another moment second guessing yourself. You were spectacular.
What Debra said. In its entirety. I was so happy to be in any way connected with the Fatosphere watching you both yesterday.
I totally loved it! What a great segment! Rachel and Monique, you were fantastic!
Why that doctor was there is beyond me. What she said about the BMI was complete nonsense, and then to follow up with this "white foods" thing just made her look dumb as a bag of hammers. However... It DOES have some possibilities!
I was just thinking today. With Lent and all coming up, maybe I should be giving up "White Foods" for lent.
How about giving up:
Filet of sole
Cauliflower
White asparagus
White cherries
White eggplants
White corn
Milk (of all varieties)
Cottage cheese (all varieties)
Hominy
So... What can I replace these with?
Devil's food cake
Steak
Pork Loin
Blue Cheese
Pumpernickel bread
Spray cheese from a can (and all other varieties of pasteurized, processed, cheese food products)
Margarine!
Butter!
Graham Crackers
The possibilities are absolutely endless...
Alas... With my gallbladder gone I'll just have to skip the wonderful feeling of virtue that giving up white foods would give me, and go ahead and eat them. I'm afraid the replacement foods and I just would not get along at all.
--Andy Jo--
You forgot Poland, and alcohol. In moderation.
This post is not really related to Rachel's and Mo's tv appearance, although their time on the air definitely helped me to organize my thoughts. I was very impressed with both of them: They stated, VERY CLEARLY AND REPEATEDLY, what the fat acceptance movement is about. However, I was frustrated (like many others) that the discussion reverted to "white foods" and BMI FROM A GYNECOLOGIST. (FYI, my gyno talks to me about my girly parts, not nutrition. I think it's because it's hard to use "vagina" and "potato" in the same sentence.)
After thinking about it over night, here are my 2 cents on what, exactly, frustrates me about the fat acceptance movement:
If there is an actual fat acceptance movement, why does it (or why do we) allow fatphobes to state the terms on which we argue? Why do we let them frame the dialog? Do we even know what the terms are? Do we have a mission statement? Why is everything so damn negative: It seems the whole dialog is to REFUTE what others say, without trying to get a clear message of our own out. This is a weak position from which to debate. Where is our rallying point?
I'm glad to see some rallying points, and very glad to see them gaining a following. I just hope that, rather than continuing to respond to others, we will start to speak independently.
This is pretty much the reason the Coalition of Fat Rights Activists is being started. Come join.
Since they count all deaths from heart attacks and complications from diabetes as weight related when the person is overweight....do they count the deaths from anorexics as anorexia or from the complications from it like heart attack and malnutrition??
For some reason I hear of people dieing from being fat all the time...but I never hear of people dying of anorexia...
Does anyone know about that?
You won't find anorexia listed as the cause of death on a death certificate for the same reasons you won't find obesity listed as a cause of death. You don't die of anorexia; you die of complications related to anorexia. And most anorexia-related deaths aren't because of heart failure or starvation - it's due to depression and suicide.
I so wanted to jump on her fuzzy math here, but I thought it would be distracting from the conversation at-hand. And since we only had 10 minutes, I wanted to focus so much on the relevant topics.
BTW, the green room discussion is now posted on the show's website. There's a link on my blog.
I had to stop my TiVo when the asstastic Mike was interrogating Rachel about her cholesterol and her obvious wretched brittle diabetes and her blood pressure. Rachel, were I you I would've looked at him and said "This is the point, you're not my doctor so it's none of your @&(#!* business! Don't presume by looking at me that you know anything about my health!"
This is why, I guess, you get to be on TV, with your sassy hair and your cute glasses and your calm demeanor, and I'm a chick in an office/closet out in the woods in rural nowhere.
I wished I had answered differently, too, now that I watch it, but here's the thing. The show's hosts didn't talk about what the producer told me they would focus on. I was somewhat blindsided. The fact that I am even asked if I am healthier now than when I was anorectic kind of blows my mind, you know.
The producer showed me the rough script for the show based on our conversations with her about 20 mins before the show. She showed me the first question I would be asked, and so I mentally prepared myself. Guess what? Mike asked me a completely different question. I was kind of blindsided and said the first thing that popped to mind.
If I had to do it over again, I'd be so much more clever and brilliant AND I'd interrupt much more. All in all, I think we did the best that we could given the circumstances.
You were incredibly clever and brilliant, and while I think that second-guessing yourself is inevitable, I hope you're not focusing on that. You were both awesome. The very fact that M*m* is supposed to be some seasoned media professional and you two totally took her apart in a calm, reasoned way speaks volumes.
Oh trust me, Rachel, you did a fabulous job with what you were given. I didn't mean it as a critique of you at all, not in the slightest, just that dreadful [expletive deleted] and apparently, badly ad-libbing, host.
I have such a hard time listening to Me me. I find myself just wondering how she has become such a spokesperson for hatred. When I watch her on these Youtube stints I just think of how uneducated she sounds. How empty. Do you really think any one takes her seriously?
On the side, I think both Rachel and Monique did a great job. WOOOHOO.
I think I have the answer to your question, Rachel_Odd. When we had the big post-Greenroom Throwdown with her, she started screaming "You think it's easy for me? I have an obese family. I have to work very hard to look like this." (I'm paraphrasing here).
That, to me, explains all of it. It explains the hatred. The self-loathing she imposes on others. The strident, nasty tone she takes. Why she thinks fat is ugly.
People like Meme have to go extreme measures like this to justify why it is they do what they do in order to look as they do. If she doesn't promote fat-hatred, then she couldn't possibly justify why she has to "work so hard" to remain thin. I think she is a very embittered, lonely, obsessed woman who is jealous of the self-confidence others have in their bodies.
When we were leaving the show, my husband said that he felt very sorry for her. I do too. But I feel more sorry for the people she hurts.
TBH I suspect MeMe and her 'organisation' alienated many (and made a few more realise the lunacy of what constitutes 'obesity' nowadays) with her spiteful comments about Jordin Sparks. According to Wikipedia, she even received hate mail and death threats after she condemned Jordin as a bad example to teens and 'the vision of unhealth'.
Rachel I'm glad you shared that. Like I said before it is almost sad and I could feel sorry for her. Except no, because what she's doing is so harmful and for some reason is having a huge impact. She's hurting herself but she's hurting others too, so no sympathy yet.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
I just want to say (again) that Rachel and MoPie totally rock!
Annie, thanks for the quote. I always liked Carson.
Me too euterpist
Paul, I didn't mention this before but it hit me hard at the time...I literally could not believe I was hearing what I was hearing and I think I just sort of didn't deal with it because of that, so I'm REALLY glad you picked it up.
The bit about her "results" being "incredible." The RESULTS? Of anorexia?? Incredible? Incredible that she lost 175 lbs through anorexia and became malnourished and sick? Like I say I was like HUH? And then they moved on and my mind just sort of locked up, like they couldn't *possibly* have meant what it sounded like. But they did so!
That was no accident. They didn't say the *consequences* were *startling* (or even frightening). Because one of the *consequences* was weight loss and that *must* be a good thing, right? So no, we can't associate anything negative with weight loss because she wasn't thin to begin with. Instead let's say her "results" were "incredible" and say it with an "Oh wow wasn't that a wonderful thing that she lost all that weight?" tone - in fact an overjoyed tone.
That is truly sick.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
I'm going to be the voice of dissent here on the "incredible"comment. I did not hear it as "Wow,wasn't that great!", but more as "Wow, I can't beleive it." But that's just me.
And the show was definitely worth getting up for and sitting through that first segment...
I thought the segment was fabulous, and thank you for the points breakdown, Paul. There were so many things said that just completely pissed me off, and of course, in that format, no one with anything intelligent to say can get a word in edgewise. Monique and Rachel did very well with what they had to work with, especially the emphasis on "health," which was completely spurious, it seems, since they had little interest in discussing HAES with Rachel even after she brought it up.
"Health" is such a wonderful excuse to hate people and, in fact, social shaming is obviously such a powerful cure that I propose we start using it to fight cancer, and osteoporosis, and blindness, and kidney disease, and toe fungus. Because it's obviously been helping us to win The War on Obesity -- oh wait, didn't Meme say 75% of us will soon be fat? Hmm. My head hurts. If hers weren't completely empty, it probably would too.
Later on, I thought - Oh, wait. If 800 of us fatties are dying every day, then soon there won't be any fatties left and she won't need to have an organization.
In regards to number 1, Well of course things only happen when the media takes notice. If everyone knew the world was flat but the media didn't care to, they would be telling stories about how someone fell off the end of the earth.
Rachel you were amazing, calm, collected, articulate, well informed, just perfect!
Silver, I keep watching it, and I'm still getting the same thing, especially in context.
Also the incredulous way the guy keeps asking if they want (face scrinches up in perplexity) "Acceptance?!" They have "Husbands?!"
Those two did an amazing job considering how it was stacked up against them - just by virtue of being given the time to actually *speak* and occasionally speaking when no one wanted them to, the message got out. Quite an amazing feat, really.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
Fat Chick, I'd love to answer you thought provoking questions with what I think are some of the answers (possibly), do you mind posting them again on the forum, so as not to disrupt this thread?
Now, even though my husband loves me and my fat and thinks I am hot...I was talking to him to other day about the whole FA movement and of course he was on the bandwagon with the "others". I realize this is because of social conditioning so I didn't get mad at him but tried to make him think a little about that attitude...and in doing so I brought up this point: who the hell cares if Me ( anyone here or anywhere else) is fat and ruining their health (if that be the case)??? I mean...give me a BREAK. Meme and the Good Doctor were all about the health benifits and blah blah blah...but still who the hell cares? IF it is true you are going to die from COMPLICATIONS from being fat, it is your business, not mine. It is funny people are fighting tooth and nail to FORCE others to lose weight...but don't fight as hard for other issues that can actually impact other people (can we say pollution anyone? No stigma attached to people that pollute the earth...and the can effect the entire human race. You don't see shows on tv about how someone miraculously stopped polluting or hate shows where they verbally beat down polluters). BTW My argument did get DH to thinking about it, and he stopped defending those like the Meme and The Good Doctor. Yay! One point for us!
I know the answer is what is attractive...and that is why it makes me so angry...because these people don't even have the balls to admit that their sole concern is that they don't want to be with a fat person therefore can't stand to see us.
Disclaimer: I am new to the FA movement and visiting these blogs...so all I have right now is rants and they tend to be directed at the women on that show at the moment.
/rant
That's really cool, Sandybutt
It is sad. Meme in particular lives in mortal fear of food lest she suddenly eat the world and become - oh noes, a blimp, a balloon, fat! One ice cream cone enjoyed and she will soar to 500 lbs and have to be hoisted dead from her house on a crane. (Sorry, I've watched all her videos and read all her stuff in like the last week, as well as all this, and yeah, it's all there.) It is actually very sad. I can't say I know all the markers of anorexia or anything else, but it sounds to me like a very sick thing - instead of having something good to eat she distracts herself with a marathon run, and on mother's day there's no good food, there's a long run with her children, etc. Never letting herself go for a moment. I'm just trying to think of what that's like, that all or nothing way of life. To never sit down with a child and share an ice cream cone, and savor it, and watch their delight and enjoy your own.
So long as you never forget her dangerous and unhealthy crusade, it's all kind of tragic. To eat something wonderful and feel satisfied, to watch someone else eat something you give them and be satisfied...these are good things, not bad things. I hope she stops all this someday and doesn't just become another Jim Fixx.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
That is actually one thing I wished I had the opportunity to address, Annie. While I do have an incredibly healthy diet and lifestyle, I don't exclude the occasional cupcake from it, either. Food is much more than the sum of its parts: It's about celebration, about ethnic and self identity, about bonding. We don't only break bread, we break barriers between class, race and gender. I think everyone here realizes the folly of restricting certain foods from your diet because they might make you gain weight - it becomes the very thing you obsess over.
In my eating disorder recovery, I learned that there are no "good" foods nor are there "bad" foods - it's all just food. In a way, I see Ms. Roth's demonization of the cupcake very reminiscent of how I labeled foods as good and bad during my eating disorder. I really do feel quite sorry for her.
*snort* Yeah, which is it? If fat really "killed" like that, wouldn't our numbers be going down?
Tell us, haters, which is it? Are you pissed because too many of us are dying, or because not enough of us are?
I'm glad you said that Rachel; I was reading a site by a woman who was on WW, and was losing lots of weight (not updated in 5 years though) and she said they teach you in WW to "think like a thin person. Thin people do not think of food as anything but fuel." I thought about this for a minute and I was like, what an absolute crock of sh**~! Of course they do! Food has always and forever been a major part of bonding, nurture, social contact - what the hell do they think feasts were about, or nursing babies, etc? If they are trying to un-think what humans are hard-wired *and* soft-wired to feel and think, they're never going to succeed.
Meowzer, excellent point. Like a really really really excellent point
I'm gonna be thinking about that one.
Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
"Thin people do not think of food as anything but fuel."
If that's the case why aren't we all living on vitamin pills as they predicted in the 60s and 70s? Why do numerous varieties of restaurant continue to thrive? It's that old notion that self-denial = morality again, and it's why the neo-Puritan fat police hate Nigella Lawson - not because she's particularly large herself, but because she understands the sensory pleasure that comes with eating good food. For me, food is as much (if not more) about enjoyment as nutrition - the company in which it is enjoyed, and the meal itself. In this context, comfort eating is a GOOD thing. To condemn this is to deny a fundamental aspect of our humanity.
Thin people do not think of food as anything but fuel, huh? That explains why no restaurant ever has anyone but fat people eating in it and no bar or coffeehouse ever has anyone but fat people drinking in it; since flavor doesn't matter, all the thin people stay home and suck down brown rice and spirulina for every meal and drink nothing but black coffee, water, and medicinal red wine which they can pour for themselves at home. **eyeroll**
(And if that's true, why do so many restaurants and bars and coffeehouses have such TINY TINY CHAIRS??)
I've always found that everyone pretty much eats the same where I work, heavy or thin, I find just as many people in both that eat just the same. Although old people love coming in for coffee and desserts.
I might start paying more attention to see if I notice anything different...
BTW, tiny chairs cost less. Everything in a restaurant comes down to price. If they could of gotten bigger chairs cheaper than the tiny chairs they would of. Mine are nice wooden chairs, they are not small, but at least they don't have arm rests. Thats when there is a problem.
With #9, I think MeMe was rounding down what she would have arrived at using the discredited 300,000 deaths per year figure (300,000 / 365 = 821.91). Which indicates to me this:
She cherry picks her facts
She knew Rachel and Monique would not allow the 300,000 to pass unchallenged - but she wanted to somehow sneak that stat in anyway in a way that would not bring an immediate refutation.
Cheers,
Melanie (Fatadelic)
Well thin people have got to be doing something different to us, othewise that would blow their little theory that we're doing something to be fat, something wrong of course!
Although I do have to say after years of being incredibly stressed about food, thinking of it as fuel-by stripping it of all other meanings that I could think of- has helped me a lot. But that's not the way they mean it.