For Crying Out Loud

Hi again, Everyone:

I am so happy to see the comments bursting! In particular, scuffmcgruff, BigLiberty and pckim: You three are absolutely amazing and I agree with you all 100%. Thanks for commenting.

Over at PDDP some people have been getting mad at me when I mention White Privilege. Well, no...that's unfair. Let me restate that:

ANYWHERE and ANYONE on the internet that mentions White Privilege, even other White bloggers/writers get into trouble for talking about it!

So, I checked the blog of my White homie Macon over at Stuff White People Do, and he directed me to a very, very, nice old White lady by the name of Peggy McIntosh who explains White privilege waaaay better than I ever could.

Here is a link that will take you not just to one, but two White people, male (Macon) and female (Mrs. McIntosh)who explain what White Privilege is and details why and how all White people have it: no matter what. I hope it helps to educate those of you who expressed interest:

http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/06/rarely-count-their-racial-blessings.html

BL -- you picked a hell of a moment to come back. This'll be over soon. Stupid racist SHIT.

Hello Everyone,

I'm still reading comments on here about what I wrote and responding as best as I can (although no one seems to be paying me much mind, hehe) and I must say I'm a little saddened.

Please stop pointing fingers at one another with the whole "I'm not a racist! YOU'RE a racist!" and "Well, I CAN'T POSSIBLY be a part of White privilege! Only {adjective} White people are!" or "Well, I DESERVE a pat on the back because I've been good enough to {verb} for Coloured People!!"

My post was never about you. Nor was it about me.

It's not about congratulating anyone. A common rule-of-thumb posted or mentioned on many POC sites is that the good people won't ask for/think they deserve for pats on the back for their actions because their goodness is glory enough. The good people won't feel offended or take things personally because they know they are good people and have done nothing wrong. The good people only listen and ask questions. The good people try to understand and admit what they cannot. The good people write constructive criticism. The good people get together and try to make positive change.

My post was about an issue important to people of Colour:

Ignorant people hijacking our suffering and history.

People who will never fully know, experience or understand it. Incidences such as the one I spoke of are, thus far, minimal in the FA community but I felt the need to speak about it anyway in my multiracial space of PDDP because as someone who believes in the FA movement, as someone who was improved by it; knowing I didn't have to diet myself to death and fat people weren't monsters, I wanted to give back and expose those people who serve to jeaprodize it's future and its expansion.

I told Paul in my open letter that I thought BFB was a positive space. I still stand by my words. Please, instead of arguing and pointing fingers, listen to one another. I've read through the comments and very few POC responded; and those who did, were in congruence with all of my article's points.

But...almost no one said anything to them or even asked them any questions. Instead, some of you chose to argue with one another, puffing out your chests in a "holier than thou" match to see who was more "tolerant" of people of Colour. Tell me, where are those few Coloured commentators now?

They have long since fled.

That, my dear friends, is a great loss. Some of you have, through your words, disapproved the very things you were trying so hard to validate.

I still believe in you, dear reader. Fat, slim, average, Black, White, Latino, Indian, Mixed, gay, straight, bi--whatever you may be. Even if you do not change or choose to disagree with me, I am glad you took the time to read what I had to say.

I believe in you, dear reader, who took the time to ask me questions or even took the time to enter POC circles on the web and engage in constructive dialogue, buy a book on our topics or even talked to a Coloured person you know about racial issues. I thank again those of you who sought clarification; rather than labelling me or writing passive-aggressive comments designed to make me shut up or rebuke my statement.

I hope you all continue to read, question and learn.

Thank you.

Davita and others who think that this conversation has "devolved" into us white people trying to cover our asses, ameliorate our guilt, pretend we aren't truly racists deep-down, yanno, like us blonde-haired blue-eyedies always do (pot meet kettle?):

Your post was all about "white FA bloggers" and their apparently complete ignorance when it comes to embracing their so-called white privilege when writing about fat discrimination. So let's talk about that. That is what Paul's post was about --- to answer what you said in your post, correct?

I understand the idea behind privilege lists. It's a way of making the institutionalized prejudice experienced by others feel more personal, in the form of the absence of institutionalized prejudice, i.e. privilege, to those who supposedly aren't targets of that same kind of prejudice.

But I simply think that privilege lists are a shoddy way to try to "bring it home" to so-called privileged people. Here's why:

1. Privilege lists generalize. The assume every person in one group has experienced the prejudice listed, and everyone in the other group has not.

2. They're condescending. This isn't the first time I've seen that same exact privilege list linked. The first time it was linked "at me," and I was infuriated, with good reason. I respect first-hand accounts of discrimination, and they're great learning experiences for me. But to quote something that says what I've known since I was a little kid --- that non-white people get double-takes or followed in certain stores? Thanks for the kindergarten education.

3. They're often used as trump cards and conversation stoppers, rather than to further conversation or to find common ground. They're used to polarize the group of readers (or commenters, or whatever) into two groups - privileged, and non-privileged. The privileged will never "get" what the non-privileged person (often the one who links the list) is trying to get at, and have lost the right to speak. Isn't that what the last few (with the exception of Annie's) comments on this post have been about? How us "white FA bloggers," who were the ones who were focused on by the post made by davita, have lost the right to speak about this and have scared off all the non-privileged because we're not willing to be grouped based on our skin color? Note: some of the last comments have scared off the Progressives, but I don't see anyone bemoaning that.

Do you know what I think is more productive? Instead of trying to polarize everyone into privileged and non-privileged categories whenever there's a discussion about race in a mixed-race community, you listen to what they have to say as individuals --- because that all each of us ever has to go on. Our individual experiences. And those are different, and can never be made into some kind of list that perfectly fits all of us. We all see our world in different ways, and our stories are important, and educational. I want to hear your story. I want to hear Annie's story. I want to hear Bree's story. I want to hear Viola's story. I want to hear Paul's story.

That's much more constructive that any damned list. Yanno. *Listening* to people.

So, it's clear how you feel about Davita for being "rude," but she is only one person. How do you feel about her ideas in general?

DebraSY, you are braver than me. In a sense. I don't refuse to bear reverent silence when I'm told that I must do so. I shut the fuck up and consider deleting my entire blog. That's what I do. And maybe that's what I'm supposed to do. It won't change me - I'd just end up more active in something like bureaucrash or something similar, but it sure stifles other conversation. But we can't win, because we are not the intimidated ones, we are not the ones who have historically suffered, and thus inevitably we CAN NOT FUCKING WIN.

That's why I'm sorry as hell Paul even brought it up. He knows there's no win.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
The Kevin Pease Beer Fund Foundation - Won't Someone PLEASE think of the psychology students?

Geez, it's not about winning or losing. We're asking you to think twice about what POC really have to go through before you say shit like, "Can you IMAGINE if this happened to Black people?" when it does.

Debra, I don't feel respected at all when the constant comparisons to the civil rights movement are made because more often than not, the comment in some way downplays the effects of racism.

And why the hell is white privilege in scare quotes?

And Annie, are you seriously sitting there whining about how White people just can't win?

Give me a fucking break with that offensive, racist bullshit.

I'm telling you that as a POC I feel deliberately excluded from this movement every time I hear things like "fat is the last acceptable prejudice" or things like "replace this with Black people and see what kind of reaction you'd get", and you're just coming up with a million and one excuses why those things aren't disrespectful and discriminatory.

Um, white privilege doesn't meant that if you are white you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

White privilege means that if you have white skin, 10 times out of 10 you have certain privileges that people of color DO NOT HAVE in America, and in many other parts of the world.

Denying you have these privileges is absurd and offensive.

And for the record, I have seen many many many FA bloggers use that *exact* phrase, "Can you imagine if this happened to Black people," so for once, why don't you listen to a person of color when they're talking about the experience of a person of color instead of assuming this actually doesn't happen and that we're all just oversensitive and crazy.

If you're really anti-racist, why don't you try, you know, not being racist?

Three things come to my mind reading this:

1) I think we as a community need to state once more very clearly that it is not acceptable to say things like "discrimination of fat people is the last acceptable for of discrimination", or "Imagine if this would have been said of black people" etc. (The same thing goes for derogatory comments about "skinny bitches". ) From what I can see, the consensus seems to be that these remarks are unhelpful for our cause and hurtful for people of color, and I think most of us white folks got that already some time ago. But it seems to me that maybe we need to be even more vigilant not to let things like that sneak into the conversation.

2) For me as a white person who decided that she does not want to support racism (or homophobia, xenophobia and all those other institutionalized prejudices) being called a racist is extremely hurtful. And yes, my first reaction is to get defensive. It would be easier for me to engage in a discussion if most of the stupid or racist things that I say wouldn't be greeted with a "oh my god, I can't believe you said that" (something that is often said by another white person) but with a calm explanation why something like that is unacceptable. Ihave good intentions, yet I sometimes do say stupid, ignorant, and hurtful things. I understand that nobody has an obligation to educate me, but it would be nice if people would do so anyways (and this goes for everyone, not just POCs).

3) Concerning this:

But, of course, her medical condition, which briefly made her fat, is why in her original, condescending, conversation stopping post she accused all fat people of a medical condition and of having the capability of being "less fat," among other falsehoods. Therefore we must shut up while she "calls us out."

I also had a problem with Davita's original post - some of the things she said seemed to repeat some negative stereotypes about fat people. But she has said here that she could have said some things in a better way and that she continues to learn - and that's good enough for me. She made pretty clear that her intentions are good, and just as I am going to make mistakes in this conversation, so is she.
No, a thin person can probably not fully understand my experiences as a fat person. (Sometimes a fat person who became fat as an adult also cannot fully understand how it was to grow up as a fat child, and how it shaped who I am today. Fat Americans might not fully understand my experiences as a fat German and vice versa. And people on the lower end of being fat often also don't understand the issues people who are much fatter than them face.)
I have heard the "how can you dare to complain that fat people are discriminated against when there are real problems like racism and homophobia" far too often. (And Davita, I know this is not what you were saying - this is not directed at you.) Saying that one form of discrimination is so much worse than another is all too often used to silence people. I wonder, however, where people that do belong to several discriminated groups end up in this whole " you don't know what you are talking about, my opression is worse than yours" thing, because it seems to me that they don't really have a place where they are fully acknowledged. Wasn't this the main issue to begin with, to make fat people of color feel more at home in the FA movement?

Whining. You say I'm a whining racist and that trumps me and means I should have to shut up. How is that not being put directly in a losing position? I could point out yet again that people don't really say those things, because whenever they try they are roundly shouted down (and it seems it's been quite a while since that happened.) So I don't know where you think I'm trying to excuse it, much less a thousand times. I asked for an example of something blatant and extraordinarily derogatory and you couldn't provide one, but I'm the one whining and being defensive. You're telling me, so I should just listen because what you tell me trumps all verifiable fact or anything else.

Lose-lose. That's the only place these conversations ever go, and the only demands made are so vague that they're incomprehensible as far as what they mean in actual reality. As in - it's almost impossible to understand what you want, at least which isn't already being or has already been done. I know *part* of it is include you in conversations, but who was excluding you in the first place? Or to never address certain topics because we have no right to discuss them. Please don't answer. I'm going to try to pretend this whole thing never happened. Richie - I don't blame you; it's not easy to put yourself out there; but you do a great job here anyway. DebraSY, I seem to be in awe of you at the moment. You possess graciousness as well as compassion and intelligence. Quite amazing.

But at least now I've dug out my Ward Connerly books; I don't know where they are taking me, but we'll find out.

One can be racist in a more subtle manner but saying this:

"I asked for an example of something blatant and extraordinarily derogatory and you couldn't provide one, but I'm the one whining and being defensive"

is truly one of the more hurtful things I've ever seen here. You're a person in America and you've stuck your head in the sand so far as not being about to see any blatant or derogatory racism? I have no more time to spend educating you, because it's not worth it.

"I could point out yet again that people don't really say those things, because whenever they try they are roundly shouted down (and it seems it's been quite a while since that happened.)"
Well, that's just false then. People DO say those things, and I could be obnoxious about pointing it out every time I see it, but I'd probably get banned. Maybe I could make a weekly post with all the times people say things like this condensed into one. Maybe that would get you to believe me, but again, I doubt that would go over well.

"I know *part* of it is include you in conversations, but who was excluding you in the first place?"

Attitudes make us feel excluded. Attitudes that deny, ignore, or belittle racism. Attitudes just like yours, where you're denying that anyone even says the things I've personally (and others have personally) seen people say, over and over, or where you challenge me to come up with any examples of blatant racism in the media, then pretend I didn't after I gave you an entire fucking list!!

"Or to never address certain topics because we have no right to discuss them."
No one has ever said this. I've only ever asked that you pull your head out of your ass before discussing them.

"Please don't answer. I'm going to try to pretend this whole thing never happened."

Yes, why don't you go and comfort yourself with your White privilege. It's GREAT that you have the luxury to pretend things like this didn't happen.