For Crying Out Loud

I'm not exactly sure what is meant by the comment added to this link, but I know that I have said stupid shit like "fatphobia is the last socially acceptable prejudice!" which just goes to show my own white privilege. There is no shortage of systemic oppression based on other characteristics as well.

I'm not sure if that comment was made in jest, but pointing out the oblivious racism of a bunch of white people is hardly a pissing match.

It's not a rumor that some/many white FA bloggers do use racism to bolster their arguments about fatphobia.

I posted this to my own blog, but thought I'd cross-post it here for transparency.

Oh freaking no.

Ok, so I really do want to post about more than fat and race stuff, but work is crazy, time is limited, and me getting mad about some bullshit is almost a certain trigger for my writing finger.

I say "Oh no," not because of the article linked, but because of the comments likely to follow on BFB, *especially* given some of the BS that I've seen there in the past on race stuff. Preemptive outrage, that is where I am these days. And, I actually agree with a lot of what Davita says, especially this: "why do you get to use us as human shields?" Indeed, white fat folks, WHY?

Of course, it is disappointing for her to assume that all fat activists are white folks, but it's also possible that she wanted to specifically address white FA folks who try to use the supposed amelioration of racism to prove how bad fatphobia is. There is also the dubious claim in her article that weight (at least in the long term) is as mutable, but that has also been covered extensively elsewhere.

To me, this again proves that there is a gaping maw where fat POC writers should be. Just like how I feel about feminism, fat liberation is important enough to me that I refuse to let the current mainstream movement drown out my voice and the voice of the other fat folks of color who refuse to use our communities as "human shields" to prove the worth of this cause.

This POC Caucus at NOLOSE cannot happen fast enough, in my opinion, and I am even more determined to produce something that we can take back to the FA movement and shout, "We are here, and you better fucking listen to us, goddammit."

I think it was pretty clear that she was directing her anger at the white FA bloggers who engage in that behavior. And I feel like it was dismissive of you to call this very real problem a "nasty rumor."

Given that it is not a small minority of white FA bloggers and blog readers/commenters who engage in this behavior, it is a very real problem that results in anger, frustration, and further marginalization of fat POC voices.

I have always said that just because one form of prejudice is worse and more pervasive and obscene than another form of prejudice does NOT mean the lesser prejudice does not exist and is not a problem. And further, it's wrong to say that I can necessarily do something to change my size. In fact, that idea misses the whole point. It isn't about whether I can or should change myself. It's about how other people choose to judge and treat me *based on my appearance.* Whether she likes it or not, that is similar to racism as far as people's mindsets go. I would never, ever say that fat prejudice is "as bad" as racism, though, because it is not. Davita is right that it's offensive to say that it is. But weight prejudice still exists and must be addressed, head-on.

Having read several posts on that blog, I think that Davita Cuttita's intentions are more friendly than otherwise. She's not fat (quite the contrary, according to her picture and self-reporting) but she has written about the "food police" and has lots of fat blog on her blogroll, including BFB. Maybe the (unnamed) fat white bloggers she's referring to aren't looking for a pissing content, but that's not the same as being clueless or insensitive. And yes, I've read lots of "last acceptable prejudice" comments, although they seem to be tapering off, thank dog.

I thought her comment Even worse, you imply that my blackness is some sort of medical condition in need of a cure was interesting because I think that mindset is what fat people are trying to counter, which sometimes leads to making a comparison to race among other things (sexism, socioeconomic class, the differently-abled & neurodiverse, or sexual orientation). I stay away from trying to draw any analogues between race and fat, for obvious reasons, and it ends up not being helpful anyway, as loaded as it is. I don't believe that fat prejudice is the last socially acceptable prejudice, I cringe when I hear that because I know there are plenty of people who could bring up other examples of acceptable prejudice . I would have agreed with what she was saying up until the above quote, but then it seems like she totally rejects or misunderstands some of the concepts involved in size acceptance, which is that we are not flawed people to be fixed, we deserve the same civil rights as others. It's something else on its own.

I don't know of anyone who says that blackness is related to fatness in the way she is saying. That seems like way too literal an interpretation the way she states it there, but maybe she is just trying a shoe on the other foot thing to make a point. I do think people might draw parallels, as someone once did here, between how certain people within the "fat community" are treated within that community and certain aspects of appearance of black people and how they may be regarded within their own community because of that, but since the latter situation is predicated on the legacy of racism, it's best not to even try to draw parallels. Also, I always find that analogies are a losing proposition--people tend to think you are comparing the full experience of one situation to another, and may feel the situations are way too far apart for comparisons to be useful, and in this situation that would be a valid assessment.

There are people, definitely, who try and minimize racism and the horror of the legacy which she talks about, by saying that things aren't like that today, and we all have problems, etc. So maybe that is her main complaint, that even bringing up racism within the context of discussion of discrimination based on anything else, diminishes the seriousness or racism and racial hatred; otherwise people wouldn't talk about them in the same breath. However, bona fide fat hate groups and legal discrimination do exist today, and sometimes in talking to the mainstream population, it is clear they don't think it is an issue at all, which I find frustrating and frightening at times. I think that's why it's hard to look at prejudice and a person's feelings about maltreatment as if these existed in a vacuum.

So she is saying that because your weight can vary by 5 or 10 lbs in a day, there is no fat identity? See, that's the thing I am just not getting. I was a fat child, it was made very clear to me where I was on the hierarchy, I'm a fat adult, fat has pretty much shaped me and been my identity, no matter what my size was. It's really not just about the poundage.

I agree about making the arguments on their own merits. There is a benefit to the fat community for doing that, honestly. I want to be able to talk about how the way I was treated both by society and the adults in that society who raised me and guided me, and how that hurt me. I don't want people immediately to say that all humans have it bad, and if I think *I* had problems I should look at X or Y, because when it comes to privilege, almost any westerner has it in buckets over those who live in developing nations. We still want to talk about and fix our own issues that dominate our life. But the truth is it really doesn't matter, because most people in my area of influence do not care about this issue. It is a personal thing, I should change myself if I have a problem. Oh well, I'm off the topic now, and should probably start a forum thread for this.

First off, we need to get over the notion that one form of prejudice has some special significance over another form of prejudice. Blacks aren't the only group that have been treated like dirt in the past and present.

Second, having a physical characteristic that you have no control over (yes, race and fat would fall into this category) doesn't mean we have to live with an "aw, poor me" mentality. Nobody is special, OK? I don't expect others to walk on eggshells around me. I just want some basic respect. And as long as nobody is trying to physically harm me, I'm good.

I don't think this lady was saying that prejudice against fat people doesn't exist, she is complaining about the crude simplistic, inaccurate and insulting links far too often made with racism in the FA context.
That is correct, and you know it isn't the first time you've been told this, from within FA and without.

I'm glad she said this, and it is to your credit that you made this link., even if your heading doesn't work, fat acceptance started this nonsense in the first place. Many have tried repeatedly to make this point, some people do get that, but far too many too often don't. Frankly, part of the reason why we aren't making much headway within progressive circles, is there is undoubtedly something unpleasantly conservative at the heart of FA, which is off putting and makes people wary. It boasts ludicrously of radicalism, when it is often pusillanimous, who was it that said, you can insult people as much by asking too little of them as too much.

Nitpicking over some attitudes towards fatness you feel she may have got wrong, is a v. cheap shot, considering how much arselicking there is of scientists and medical professionals, if they deem to bring out findings that tell us a bit of what we already know, and let's not forget lonewolf. This is also v. annoying, who gets a long rope and why, but that's for another time.

Now, for you to imply that somehow, my blackness is related to fatness opens up the floor to suggest that I could be “less Black” if I changed my diet and lifestyle.

Yes, not perfect, but all in all, far more enlightened than the average. And as you well know there is still debate around that, do I need to bring up naafa's website with it's overweight and obese nonsense? Note the absence of this on this post.

Of course there are links towards all prejudices, I still don't agree about that photo, but it's recognising those links, as she said, if you don't understand, it's best to leave it out.

I think it's futile to compare prejudices. My experience is not your experience, and vice-versa. That said, it's incredibly hypocritical to label "white FA bloggers" when talking about perceived privilege. If you don't see that, frankly that's your problem --- I've already fought that battle and don't want to revisit it again.

Additional hypocrisy comes in the form of boxing race into some kind of unmatchable, sacrosanct -ism and being bull-headed about whatever status you want race to have in the world of -isms (to some people, an inviolable front and center). That means you automatically negate the experience of others who have experienced variegated, not only or perhaps ever race-based, prejudices.

To top that all, is the myopic belief that there will never be other prejudices and labels which will cause as significant or greater harm to individuals than race-based prejudices, and that human scapegoating and class-formation isn't the root cause of many prejudices, including race and yes, including fat.

There are complexities and varieties of experience, and those are important to understand and, like I said, my experience will never be your experience. But to ignore similarities of social prejudice in general is just lazy thinking, and fundamentally dishonest.

I am even more determined to produce something that we can take back to the FA movement and shout, "We are here, and you better fucking listen to us, goddammit."

tarashuai, to whom would you issue this challenge? I don't see a FA movement with coherent leadership, not even from NAAFA, although I suppose that would be a start. There are some big blogs, but the fatosphere is a very loose collection and some of the blogs aren't even "progressive".

I've been reading the complete fatosphere for months, but I still don't understand what this person means by "the fat vs. race argument." I realize that some fat bloggers fail to consider POC in their posts, I realize that it's ignorant to call something "the last socially acceptable prejudice" and I also realize that talking about POC's attitude towards fat as a white person may not be a wise idea.

But what exactly is that argument we're supposed to be bringing up all the time? Is all this about comparing the two groups to make a point? I don't think that's harmful, seriously, especially not if you're trying to make a non-racist person understand why sizeism is bad. You say "try replacing the word with [insert oppressed group here]" and bang! they get it. It doesn't even have to be racism, we've got plenty of -isms to choose from.

We're not saying that sizeism is as bad as racism. All we're saying is that discrimination is bad, and just because sizeism isn't the "worst," there's no reason to ignore it.

And I really have NO CLUE whatsoever where the association with "becoming less black" comes from. We're not suggesting that anyone become less fat, so really what's the link??

This is only marginally related, but one thing I really would like to see is a survey on who generally reads FA blogs and who defines themselves as FA advocates as well as which relevant topics are not covererd sensitively or not at all in their opinion. Ethnic background would be one thing to ask for - other would be gender, sexual orientation, income/ socioeconomic status, education and nationality/ country of origin. And although it is a much hated measure (and rightfully so!) BMI might also be a good thing to ask for. My feeling is that a survey like this could help the movement see a) who is already part of the movement, b) in how far these people feel the movement represents them/ their concerns and c) which groups that are assumed to be part of the movement might not be reached by it.

You know what? Never in the history of forever have I so clearly understood why some people of color want absolutely nothing to do with white people.

It is a total struggle to get intersectionality into the Fatosphere. I understand that a lot of bloggers don't want to deal with it because we are focusing on fat stuff but fat stuff does not exist in a vacuum. I have seen far, FAR too many writers and commenters in the Fatosphere toss out some stuff that really utterly disregards race/class/ability/etc. - including people who are all "oh, there is only the HUMAN race" which is dismissive and, frankly, stupid because it ignores the reality of our world. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

For people who are angry with Davita - she is angry, rightfully so, with white people. Belittling her anger doesn't lessen her point - that white people need to step up and stop trying to pretend that fat hate trumps race hate. There is no hierarchy of oppression, y'all. It all sucks. But if there WERE a hierarchy? I think being, you know, enslaved for generations beats never winning a court case.

It is a total struggle to get intersectionality into the Fatosphere.

I think that for those of us who are trying to face up to that struggle, though, it's really hard to see people talking about "the fatosphere" as a universally racist/exclusive entity. For instance, there is only so much we at SP can do as a bunch of white people; I can never have the lived experience of being a POC, and if I wrote as if I did, it would be totally offensive. And while I can rip commenters a new one when they say something ignorant, I can't keep them from saying it in the first place (well, not the regulars, anyway). So I understand why people get their backs up; it's the "waah, I'm a white person and I want credit for not being in the KKK" response, but it's also more legitimately a reaction against being lumped in with attitudes we have expressly come out against.

At least, that's my emotional response; Marianne, you seem to be better about that than I am.

I didn't think the post Paul linked to was a great example of intersectionality either -- I thought there was a lot of "white people are faintly pathetic for caring about fat when there are more important oppressions," and while there may indeed be more important oppressions, I think it's a crucial part of intersectionality to recognize that oppressions inform and affect one another, and we can't afford to marginalize any of them. Reading Davita's edit, where she responds to Paul, makes me think that I misread, though (reading through a screen of defensiveness will do that) -- anyway the addition is terrific and might help people who are struggling to understand where Davita's anger is coming from. But I think Marianne put it perfectly -- yes, we generally think it's not useful to compare oppressions, but if we were going to, seriously, you guys, fat would not win. Maybe that doesn't mean we're whiny whities for caring about fat; I don't think it does. But it does mean that we do NOT get to minimize someone else's experience. Not that we would get to do that anyway. I think fat is important; I think it's all the more important because of how it intersects with racism, ablism, and sexism. But pretending that fat prejudice has remotely the history and entrenched institutional support that racism has is naive and offensive.

OK if this is going to become another white man's burden arugment (apart from a few noble exceptions)*yawn* I'll leave you to it.

I thought the pertinent point here was not about comparisons, it's about how those comparison's are made. And if you insist this is about uppity ethnics, then why did FA have this similar argument with mainly white gays?

OK if this is going to become another white man's burden arugment (apart from a few noble exceptions)*yawn* I'll leave you to it.

If that's partly to me I'm really sorry it came off that way... I mean, I recognize that I am at least 50% doing the "I'm a white person trying not to be racist, please give me a cookie" thing, and I talked about that explicitly because I think it's important that all of us who get defensive understand where the defensiveness is coming from. But for me it's mostly "blogger's burden" -- it feels personal when people complain about a movement you're a vocal part of. I just meant to say that I understand that reaction. You still have to put that personal butthurt aside, though, because otherwise you make the whole thing about you and your feewings.

Fat hate and fat hysteria certainly doesn't discriminate when it comes to race and ethnicity. And while I haven't experienced public hostility from the jerks on the street about my fat like so many others have in FA in many years, the media yells at me all the time that my appearance is unacceptable and unhealthy.

And to be quite honest, I am more concerned about not being treated with respect and considered inferior and immoral because I'm not thin, moreso than whether the white FA bloggers are considering my feelings on being a POC.

Defensiveness makes sense to me - denying the reality of other people's lived experience because of that defensiveness really doesn't.

I didn't comment in blogs written by people of color for a long time because, when they would write about "white people", my initial response was always "but I am not like that" - which is all well and good on a personal level but on a cultural level? What I am or am not like is not important. I don't stand for the rest of white people any more than one FA blogger stands for the whole of FA or one black person stands for the whole of black people or any other thing, you know? I had to train myself to think in terms of cultural references - "white people" as a culture throughout history have done some heinous shit to people of color, whatever that color happens to be. That has added up to our culture right now.

And, you know, this isn't about "white man's burden" - which is a dismissive bullshit argument if ever I have heard one - but it IS about taking the time to realize that YES we do benefit from white privilege. Suck it up and accept it, people. It isn't about your individual hardship - your shitty life does not negate the cultural trend.

Uppity ethnics? THE HELL? I'm not sure where you are reading that acknowledging the specifics of this problem - race and fat intersect and people are pissed off because it is not being addressed or is actively being dismissed - equals denying other problems that are just as much about privilege.

Bree - this:

And to be quite honest, I am more concerned about not being treated with respect and considered inferior and immoral because I'm not thin, moreso than whether the white FA bloggers are considering my feelings on being a POC.

actually makes me kind of sad - because everyone SHOULD expect FA bloggers to acknowledge that experiences as a person of color intersect with experiences of fat. And if that isn't true for you personally, it is true for tons of other people and they deserve respect when it comes to those experiences. The role of FA is to focus on fat, absolutely. But I think denying that fat hate gets tangled up with a lot of other social power issues is kind of short-sighted.

Defensiveness makes sense to me - denying the reality of other people's lived experience because of that defensiveness really doesn't.

Emphatically agreed. I do think it's worthwhile to diagnose the source of the defensiveness, but not because it lets you off the hook -- rather, because it makes clear what you need to overcome in order to try to approach the subject from a less privileged position. I usually feel like it's important to acknowledge when I'm being a bingo square.

I took wriggles' comment to be dismissive of people who were complaining about how hard it is to be a white person taking criticism from POC, not dismissive of POC criticizing white people.

I am not sure HOW to read wriggle99's comment - if I misread it then I will absolutely apologize. I am just getting so fed up with denials that privilege exists in any meaningful way.

Okay, I read this and Davita's post last night, but I knew I needed to take some time to process it so that I could sort out my mixed feelings. And by mixed feelings, I mean my response to her anger (defensiveness) versus my response to what she was really trying to get across.

I know that as a white person, even though I have trained my eye to the racist bullshit, I don't see it near as much or *feel* it on the level of a POC. When you are especially attuned to prejudice, privilege, and hate, you get pissed off (and more). A single nuance of fat hate can piss me off. I could go on a fucking rampage over it, in large part because it adds to the barrage coming at me from our culture. Even friends of mine who might "understand" might also think I'm being ridiculous and blowing things way out of proportion because they don't see or feel that same barrage of culture, or they do and accept it/internalize it.

Though I can't state Davita's feelings on the matter, I imagine that's what she might feel when she's in the fatosphere (or almost anywhere). And that's how this post treats her, sadly, like she's ridiculous. As we well should know, oppressed people ALWAYS get dismissed as being combative or angry (notwithstanding their good reason to be), in large part because of the above stated disconnect (this is not a big deal vs. this is fucking horrible) and web of privilege (so that you don't have to be as attentive to the particular barrage of culture). I knew I had to take a step back, and I am glad I did. Though I still don't agree with all the statements she made, I (think) I understand what she was trying to get across.

I think white fat activists (and everyone else) need to deal with the fact that racism (without and within the movement) and privilege are things we are going to have to work on, well, for the rest of forever. The feminist movement STILL has not even remotely worked this out; if we think we're going to fix it in a snap, we need a wake-up call. Until then, we need to take the time to listen to POC and resist the urge to label them ridiculous and angry. If we don't, how can we expect anyone to listen to our claims about fat hate without dismissing us in the same way?

Hi Everyone,

If the username is not a dead give-away to who I am, I dunno what is (a lil' more snarky humour, haha).

I would like to say thank you very much to all who've taken the time to read my post.

I realize some things could be said better and they will be as I continue editing today. I've read pretty much all the comments here and am very touched by those of you who've put your defensiveness aside to say "yes, there is a problem". You may not realize it, but that thought in and of itself is wonderful and is the type of thinking that encourages People of Colour to continue speaking out without fear of backlashing or being dismissed.

As I said in my letter to Paul (now posted on my blog), I'm all for fat acceptance and have written quite a few articles on PDDP to garner support for it as well as encourage people on those "bad" days. I encourage you all to check them out. However, wherever there is injustice I must speak up, and yes; a small percentage of the FA movement has caused an injustice by using the suffering of POC as a stepping stool to advance their own agendas and not necessarily the movement as a whole. Writing the post, I was not only distraght as a young Black girl, but distraught for the FA movement being hijacked by assholes who don't want to put an (valid) argument together and perpetuating the stereotype of an ignorant White person/were being ignorant White people.

I refused to sit in silence and am willing to accept responsibility for that.

I do not belong to any particular movements at all. I only believe in justice and equality for all human beings and I believe we can only get that if we agree we can improve then listen and learn from one another.

Davita, welcome. Nice to hear from you over here. You make an excellent point about civil rights arguments needing to stand along while people need to stand together. As frustrating is, if people can't or won't see fat people (all fat people) as deserving of equal treatment simply because they are people, then no comparison or analogy is likely to work.

because everyone SHOULD expect FA bloggers to acknowledge that experiences as a person of color intersect with experiences of fat. And if that isn't true for you personally, it is true for tons of other people and they deserve respect when it comes to those experiences. The role of FA is to focus on fat, absolutely. But I think denying that fat hate gets tangled up with a lot of other social power issues is kind of short-sighted.

I don't deny that fat hate gets tangled up with a lot of social power issues. But if you think about it, who is doing the tangling more? We keep hearing more and more about government and special interest groups (I'm talking US here) that target fat people, but specifically, poor fat people. It's no secret that the majority of the black population live in poverty. I really am not surprised then, when the white FA bloggers and commenters automatically link sizeism with racism. Is that right? No, but it's easy to fall into the trap when others are already doing it for us. The difficult thing is to try to not tangle fat hate and race hate together.

I think my attitude is a little more cavalier because I'm biracial and I do not interact with my father, who is black, and his relatives due to my parents' divorce. Being raised by my white mother and her parents in a middle-class home, being able to go to college and have a pretty decent job has given me more privelege and access to other things than other POC's. I am well aware of that. I have experienced racially charged insults from both whites and blacks at times throughout my life, but those have been far and few between. I don't really want to use the word "lucky," but that's how I feel.

I also feel that it always should not be up to white FA bloggers to extend the invitation to POC's in becoming a part of the fatosphere. Sometimes, we need to do things for ourselves and get the barriers broken. Remember, in spite of all of our differences, we have one thing that does bind us together, and that is discussing being fat in a fat-hating world. I don't expect us to all hold hands and sing Michael, Row the Boat Ashore together, but we can try to work together towards getting fatphobes and fat haters to realize that we are people too, just bigger.

Hi again Everyone,

I've edited the post to make my stance more clear. I hope some of you choose to check it out, feel free to call me out on whatever you wish.

To all of you who've posted questions and constructive criticism and especially to those of you who've taken the time to do so on PDDP, I extend my utmost thanks.

People like you were truly inspirational for me doing the re-write as I realized I could've said a few things more clearly. People like you give me hope.

Thank you.

"Progressive: 1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor.
2. making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.
3. characterized by such progress, or by continuous improvement."

Sniper, I just wanted to note that at least you put progressive in quotes. I have never appreciated the way the term has been co-opted to mean specifically that which is politically to the left, when that is *not* what it means. I'll just post on it elsewhere than derail this - whatever this is. Paul, this will probably annoy you but I can't imagine why you'd have posted it.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for posting this and for apologizing. As I said, I'm used to dialogue sometimes being misunderstood, especially when realities come in the vast variety they do in this world. It's understandable.

There is no ill-will whatsoever from myself or my co-writer at PDDP and we will always support BFB as long as it exists as well as the Fat Acceptance movement. We are also more than willing to listen to the concerns of any oppressed or marginalized group and engage in constructive, informative, dialogue on any topic with anyone who is willing to learn or share their experiences. We will continue to do our best to inform and educate all communities of the injustices ourselves or others have observed or experienced whilst carefully highlighting the truth, albeit; in our own eccentric and somewhat abrasive way.

I appreciate all the comments, inquiries and support you and some of your readers have offered, many of them are quite emphatic and intelligent--their words and your statement serve as great proof that the stereotype of fat people being dumb and uncaring is just garbage. The kindness of some of the readers here and your fight for equality trumps any hate-oriented, fear-mongering, fatphobic scientific study.

Thank you.

There are some things that bother me about the way the fatosphere regards racial issues. One is just a matter of numbers. It's sometimes a little intimidating when a thread is about race and 80% of the people responding are white. It's easy to feel shouted down and then my first reaction is to get aggressive/defensive. And, of course, when a large majority of people are white, the large majority will also say they "just don't see" the racism. Which, to me, seems natural. Many times white people can't or won't see racism; doesn't mean it isn't there.

The problem is not only when people outright say "Fat is the last acceptable prejudice." It's not always as explicit as that. It's when people say things like, "Ugh, I can't believe he said that about fat people on TV. Can you *imagine* if someone said something blatantly racist on TV?"

Newsflash! People say racist things on TV *all the time*. And, contrary to popular white belief, it is NOT always recognized.

And no, you can't say "nigger" on the TV, but you also can't call someone a worthless fat fucking whale, which almost approximates the equivalent of "nigger". Actually, there's really no number of expletives that would be the equivalent.

I also see variations on the idea that "No respectable newspaper would grant a platform to a racist or a homophobe to spout hatred or make mock but they don't think twice about allowing fat people to be villified."

I see racist commentary in newspapers ALL THE TIME. I'm just shocked at the level of sticking heads into the sand if others don't.

What's up with the language in this entire post? "For Crying Out Loud" sounds exactly like the exasperated cries white people use to silence POC when we're pointing out something they think we need to "relax" about. And what's with calling Davita a "random person?" That sounds so disrespectful. Isn't she also part of FA? And why marginalize people with a legitimate complaint? I feel like if I align myself with Davita and agree with her (which I do), then I'm also a "random person", not someone who's been a fat activist for several years, as if being angry about racial issues suddenly removes me from the entire community because one white man says so.

"Actually, there's really no number of expletives that would be the equivalent."

There probably aren't. This (along with the rest of the commentary) might come somewhere in the neighborhood, and it's not very uncommon to hear: "Obesity is a manifestation of a cultural depravation," he tells globetrotting chef and TV host Anthony Bourdain, "in its most vulgar and displeasing-to-look-at form. And it's suicide as a lifestyle." (If you watched the utter horror and disgust in the way he said it, it's actually worse than it looks.) I never see black people described as a manifestation of depravity in its most vulgar and ugly form. I've read quotes by the KKK about black people that didn't say such things, except of course they use that word that pretty much says it all. (I also see comedians "going there" now, such as Sarah Silverman.) Now, you're under no obligation to answer me, but I am asking not in order to discount you but to seriously understand, *where* do you see stuff like that about black people? Every day on the television and in papers, I mean, I guess. I see things as bad as that about gay people, but usually by scumbags like the Phelpses, who are hated en masse.

Or maybe I misunderstood and you were saying you see much more subtle racism (such as that Beth Ditto picture.) Though if it has to be buried that deep, you might wonder what's the point in trying anymore, because it's never going to be good enough. And maybe it isn't. I'm no expert.

Let's see.

Well, when I turn on the TV and newspapers, the first thing I see about Black people? No Black people. Actually, wait. If there's someone committing a crime, then like magic, here they are! Black people are stereotypes, usually negative ones, over and over, without cease. Do you not notice?

I see the idea that to be a beautiful Black woman, you have to look White, that being and actually looking how you're supposed to look is ugly and unacceptable.

I see the idea that we are less valuable as humans and that our contributions to society are worthless.

I see the idea that "acting Black" means acting like an ignorant fool and "acting White" means being educated and cultured.

I see White corporations sponsoring hateful rap which are painted as representations of hip hop and African American culture.

I see no role models. You could argue the same for fat people, but at least fat white people can turn on the TV and easily see other White people in prominent, respectable positions. Black people, fat or thin, have no such luck. This lack of representation has a disastrous effect on our community.

I see a certain White owned and operated channel spewing nothing but the idea that Black people are violent, misogynistic, and greedy. For many people across America, this is the *only* representation they see, and the repercussions of this are staggering.

Advertisements for skin whitening products are getting more popular. If you'd like to have an idea of the kind of self loathing that engenders, I'd be happy to tell you, but use your imagination.

I saw the editor of Glamour magazine talking about how natural Black hair is "unprofessional" and unacceptable.

But, hey, you know, these things are buried *so deep* that no reasonable person could see any of this racism.

I almost wish that instead of just the media just showing that Black people are stupid criminals, they'd just say it. At least that way I wouldn't have to point it out to White people and list how and why there are still examples of blatant racism in the media. *Sigh*.

It's almost as if no one would be convinced that racism is still acceptable and promoted in the media until someone makes it explicit and obvious. Actually, it *is* pretty obvious to me, and it makes me so sad that it's seen as "subtle" to other people? Are. You. Serious.

"Though if it has to be buried that deep, you might wonder what's the point in trying anymore, because it's never going to be good enough."

What do you mean by this comment? I *think* you mean that there'd be no point in trying to fight racism anymore if it's that subtle? But, no, you couldn't really mean this. And what isn't good enough? There is a point when it will be good enough--how about when there is no racism, not just when it's buried deep enough that we have to have discussions about how white people "just don't see" (duh) the racism in something POC are saying is racist.

I am not going to argue for or against anything from a personal perspective - as I said elsewhere, I also come from a different culture than most people here and so I "simply might not get it" on other grounds than being white. But I am a social psychologist (well, a grad student anyways, and I there is some things I can contribute from that perspective.

There are, in fact, still people that argue black people are on average less intelligent than white people (note that this stereotype does not apply to all POCs). Recently, they have done this on the basis that black people have lower average IQ scores. What those people completely overlook is that IQ scores generally differ between cultures (and therefore might also differ between sub-cultures in the US) and that this might be due to the fact that people of different cultures are encouraged to develop different intelligence related skills while at the same time IQ test are usually developed by white males. Of course these tests SHOULD ideally measure intelligence independent of which skills you have practiced and developed, but in reality this is impossible to do. Also, there is likely to be stereotype thread at play. If you remind a black person of his or her race (or a woman of her gender for that matter) the person tends to score lower on an IQ test afterwards - and just make people report their race or gender before the test is enough to actually find this effect.

As for crime reporting, even if the media would not overreport crimes committed by people of color, people of color perceived as belonging to minorities in the US. On the other hand, criminal behavior is perceived as "not the norm". If you have two co-occurring events that are seen as relatively rare/ not according to the norm (in this example, a person being a person of color and a person committing a crime) you tend to wrongly perceive these two things as correlated. (Therefore, a smart move for the media would be to avoid reporting ethnic backgrounds of people who committed crimes in the first place, at least if they were serious about fighting racism).

There is a point when it will be good enough--how about when there is no racism, not just when it's buried deep enough that we have to have discussions about how white people "just don't see" (duh) the racism in something POC are saying is racist.

Lastly, while I agree that this is what we ("we" as in "humanity") should strive for, it is also something we will likely never reach. I am not sure if the same groups will continue to be suppressed. But we all have a tendency to favor our ingroup (and perceived race is a powerful ingroup) over our outgroup. In the lab, you get this effect already by simply putting differently colored shirts on people - though it is subtle, a person with a red shirt will favor another person with a red shirt over a person with a blue in a lab environment. In real life we have so many other much less random groups we belong to, so shirt color probably does not play any measurable effect at all (in fact, even in the lab the effect is quite small, although it is statistically significant). But group memberships that are more obvious or that have existed historically do effect our behavior - and they often do so in subconscious ways.

scruffmcgruff and sannanina,

I have seen all those things that you also see. Additionally, I cringe whenever I see how in commercials, the idea of mixed-race couples and families seems to be almost taboo (with few exceptions), when in actuality the prevalence of mixed-raced couples and families is only ever increasing.

I hate the segregation on sitcoms. Rarely do you see white and black people interacting in large numbers (i.e., not just the token "other' race friend), without there being some goof about it (i.e., someone walked into the "wrong" neighborhood, or wandered into the "wrong" nightclub, or something).

I get irritated that I can't seem to get through a single comedy routine without there being the token race jokes. I understand those jokes are a way of blowing off steam, or speaking out with humor instead of getting on a soapbox, but it's like most comedians are expected to joke about race these days, and, frankly, there are very few who have been able to pull it off in a productive way (I'm think about Chris Rock and --- hmm, I'm terrible with names, there are a few others I just can't place). Most just use the stage as an opportunity to showcase their own prejudices.

I think I take a different tack than most libertarians in that I think we still live in a largely race-obsessed and racially divided culture. Of course, unlike most liberals, I consider both positive and negative forms of racism bad things (which I've discussed before but don't want to go into here), I see it everywhere. I see the pandering, the pointless money-throw as if that ever actually really works, and it bugs me. It bugged me that there was only two non-white people in my undergrad physics major (of about 30 people). Why? Yeah, it's wikkid New England and everything where white is still the majority, but I honestly don't get it. However, I don't think trying to micromanage the non-white community is the answer, and I personally think that has done waaay more harm than good (i.e., the pandering, effectively keeping people segregated into communities, and so forth).

I don't think the answer lies in government solutions, micromanagement, programs, and regulations. We've got lots of those, have had them for a long time, and they don't work. I think grass-roots neighborhood-based solutions work much better, since the people who contribute and volunteer directly benefit from the programs themselves, and that is a much more powerful and changing phenomenon. I think people like Bree, who say, "I'm just going to say what I'm going to say anyway, understand there are things I'll never experience like you have, and vice-versa, but I think we have common ground" are doing a lot of good in advancing the conversation and including others.

Yet, I see where AnnieMcPhee is coming from. I think what Annie is saying is not that these things we have described don't exist and aren't a problem, but that where race and fat intersect does not imply a natural marginalization of the experience of fat people. All those things she described, and more, are very real, vocal prejudices against fat people. It isn't unusual to hear, "It's bad to be fat," just randomly, on the bus, or in the office. Daily I feel like I'm less of a human because I only see myself represented on television as a joke or a villain. I'm considering perhaps never having children because of the fear that by the time my child is in elementary school, fat children will be forced to go to summer fat camps, put on diets at school, or placed in social programs because of their weight. Every time I sit on the subway for my 40-minute ride, somebody doesn't sit beside me because of my fat. Though I'm an Aspie and rarely make eye-contact, about once a week I see someone who is openly disgusted by the fact that I am, to them, unacceptably fat (this is coming from someone with a BMI ~33, and very tall so I "hide it well"). When I was thin, people were more likely to make eye contact, say hello, smile, etc. Now it's like I'm invisible or worse, a pariah.

And herein lies the issue, I think: everything I described above, I did so to illustrate my own sense of being prejudiced against, *not* as a comparison to the experience of people who are not white. But I think sometimes, to people who are primarily voices for the community fighting race discrimination, a description above can evoke that kind of thought. People being prejudiced against because they are fat is not a natural marginalization of the experience of other groups who feel prejudiced against for other reasons, and our trying to fight against the very real prejudices we experience on a daily basis isn't us flipping the bird to race, or sexuality, or religion, etc. Us making comparisons in order to enlighten people who are so mired in our disordered healthist anti-obesity culture isn't in order to marginalize the experience of people who are non-white (or non-Christian, or non-hetero, whatever) it is to make that "light bulb" go off in the head of someone who understands the idea of racial or sexual prejudice, but who does not yet understand the idea of size prejudice.

And though some other bloggers have taken the analogy too far, I think they are in a very tiny minority, and I think that's what Paul was initially trying to say. To paint the rest of us "white FA bloggers" like that is not correct. And while we could never understand what is like to be a non-white person, us talking about how we are alienated, tortured, shamed, and otherwise discriminated against because of the way we look --- fat --- is not an affront to those who experience prejudice for other reasons.

This topic is why I stopped commenting on this particular blog a long time ago, as a fat black women I just got utterly sick of the "if they has said that about a black person..." Please, they do all types of crap to blacks all the time, like more jail time for same types of crimes, police stops, being dismissed, old boys network, poor schools, nooses, etc. Plus the history of slavery... Life for people who are black and really fat is tremendously difficult, you don't even know where discrimination is coming from. Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm fat? Is it both? Or am I just being defensive? No, I'm not and I will not be dismissed because my concerns are just as valid as anyone else's. I just had to basically let this blog go hoping I would find one like this one for African Americans. I still read this blog once in a while...but not like I used to. I'm not posting this to be hit with a flame, and I don't expect for one moment for you all to understand. I'm just adding my two cents and I feel better for doing so.

DebraSY,

My stepmother's family lived on subsidies, and they are now (for the most part) all productive citizens. Certainly there are instances where "pointless money throws" aren't so pointless. I think my point was to underline those people who believed that all problems can and should be solved with money alone, or primarily. I think the history of this has had spotty success, especially when you try to throw money at problems such as class, color, size, etc prejudice. Doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, there has been more success in fighting prejudice when those discriminated against stand up against it themselves, and say, "Nope, not gonna take it anymore, and this is why, asshole," and then speak and act on their convictions. Sometimes, of course, a helping hand is needed (freeing slaves, fighting in WWII against the Nazis, etc). But the best kind of lasting change comes from within the affected community. Which is why most of us are here.

Wait, is it really POC who are in a "pissing contest" over fat vs. race? Cuz it really seems to me that since Paul's apology it's many of the white people on this thread who are having a pissing contest. This shouldn't have been about you or about teaching POC about how fat people are marginalized/oppressed. I know fighting fat oppression is one of our big battles in life, and we are used to being in battle-mode, but that's not what this was about.