Congratulations

The ones I have the most trouble with are the people who weigh a lot more than I do and say they don't care about being thin, they just want to get down to something like "my" size "for their health," because their doctors told them to lose weight because of type 2 diabetes -- almost no doctor does NOT "recommend weight loss" for type 2 diabetes, after all, unless the diabetic in question is very thin -- or because when they weighed more like what I did, their knees didn't hurt as much, they had more energy, etc.

I feel like a real jerk telling them they should not aspire to that. I feel like even more of a jerk for thinking, "You'll gain it all back, almost everyone does." I know how terrified many of these people are that they are going to die very soon or become immobilized if a significant amount of weight is not lost and kept off. It's all anyone ever bloody well hears, why shouldn't they believe it? Glibly chanting "HAES, HAES, HAES," feels like telling them, "You should sacrifice your personal happiness and well-being for the good of our movement."

The problem is, Diet Nation says that human body size is entirely a matter of personal choice. So if someone can diet down to "my size," that reinforces the idea that I can diet down to Tina Fey's size, and that Tina Fey can diet down to Jennifer Aniston's, etc., etc. It puts pressure on all of us to diet and diet and diet if we have an "inch to pinch" anywhere. And so I will not congratulate anyone for weight loss. I will congratulate them for eating better (for them) and being more active or managing their blood sugars better, but I'm not going to take part in, "I was such a COW before" conversations. I just won't. It probably means I won't have as many friends, but I won't have as many headaches either.

Actually, my response would be too long; I'm gonna do a blog post on it instead. But suffice it to say, I hate it too, and have recently been put in that position to a degree that really pisses me off. I have been very grateful for the hardline stance here at any rate; there have been times I started thinking I was insane and then came here and said "Oh no, the world hasn't turned inside out." So, thank you.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
The Kevin Pease Beer Fund Foundation - Won't Someone PLEASE think of the psychology students?

I'd remove the posts. Because it disgusts me "that much". I am right there with you on the "fat acceptance lite", it is a no can do situation.

I also refuse to congratulate people on weight loss. When it's expected that something positive be said, I might say, "I'm glad to see you so happy", or "Congratulations on sticking to an exercise program", or otherwise comment on a behavior that isn't about the weight loss itself. The person may not notice the difference, but I do.

To me, there's a difference in changing your eating habits due to actual health issues with your body (like vesta 44's husband with his diabetes) instead of losing weight just to look physically attractive for mainstream society.

Just because a person decides to get smaller to look better doesn't make them a candidate for sainthood, and those who choose not to diet should not be treated like the scum of the earth. Not everyone "can do it too!" and I'm tired of hearing that phrase, because every fat person is fat for a different reason besides the worn-out stereotype of not putting down the fork and not exercising.

I always feel this urge to say, "Oh my, I'm so sorry! What happened??" Then again, I don't get that very often because I just don't talk to many people, so I've never actually done it yet and I don't know if I could.

Reminds me of the last time someone tried to give me a compliment by pointing out that I had lost weight since I gave birth - I seriously didn't realize what the hell it was supposed to mean and stared at the person stupidly for a while until I finally said, "Uh ... yeah. Obviously. Why on earth could that be??" Poor guy.

I completely agree with the "fat acceptance lite" thing, too - HAES-style diets are fine with me, but weight loss for the sake of weight loss is nothing but counterproductive to the whole idea. Of course it is awesome that some people decide to support fat rights even if they're still on a diet. They just shouldn't mention both in the same breath.

While I think it's definitely possible for a dieter (by which I mean dieting for weight loss) to physically advocate for fat rights (write letters to the editor, march on the statehouse for fat rights, etc) make no mistake: they are either hypocrites or ignorant. I think it's so important to educate and myth-bust constantly --- because even though we've heard it all a gazillion times, there's going to be someone on the edge of acceptance who stumbles on the blogs and who still believes that fat = unhealthy, thinner = healthier, and so forth.

I don't do "fat acceptance lite," either. I think that blogs who allow diet talks and say they're fat acceptance blogs are in fact hypocritical fat acceptance lite blogs and, frankly, the "cookies" do far more harm than good.

Paul is making a really, really great point here. There's a difference between compassion and cookies, sympathy for and the sanctioning of behavior. We can all feel for dieters --- most of have been there. But we *cannot* keep handing out rewards. Those rewards can be in the form of the non heartfelt "congratulations," or even civil silence. Either supports or encourages the status quo and fat-hating behavior. It's time to challenge the status quo.

You can challenge the status quo and still be respectful. When they direct their "accomplishment" at you, say, quite politely, "You lost X lbs? I knitted a sweater last week/volunteered at a soup kitchen/got my master's degree/helped a friend in need/made the best tuna casserole ever." Put their "accomplishment" into perspective: so they exercised two hours a day at the gym in order to help themselves burn X calories so they could be cookied X WW points? They could have spent those two hours volunteering for a Big Brother/Big Sister program, writing a novel, singing in a choir, dancing for fun (not to burn teh evil caloreez).

Okay, so maybe that isn't so respectful. But really, enough is enough. If someone is going to wave their conformity to the fat-hating culture in your face, you have every right to wave your *non*-conformity to the fat-hating culture in their face. It's as simple as that.

I think the best response to "I've lost weight" from a person who is really happy about it is to say "How do you feel?" Shifting the conversation away from weight to how the person feels physically or mentally shows that you're interested in them without having to invest in their weight loss. It also gives you an out from having to give the person positive reinforcement for doing something you don't initially approve of. Who knows, maybe their goal was to feel better and move more, and they're just using the socially acceptable marker of weight to talk about the changes.

BigLiberty, I am just starting to get back into the swing of how to deal with those kinds of things - for a while here I wasn't seeing dieters all the time. But your idea is perfect. I don't know how it fits into the thing I have though, which isn't "Hey I lost X pounds" but someone who is sitting her rattling on endlessly about how she has to lose x pounds and only has X calories left - wait a minute, how many calories do I have left - and today I had this this this this and this and I have to have 2 fruits and FUCK SHUT UP ALREADY. But by the time I can say shut up she's off showing me the next thing online she's gonna buy and the bridal shower for her son and this and that and...you know, I am way too good a listener. People never freaking shut up, especially attention whores like her.

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
The Kevin Pease Beer Fund Foundation - Won't Someone PLEASE think of the psychology students?

Great post., Paul! I agree with everything you said.

My personal strategy when someone fishes for congratulations for weight loss, lately, is to ask them how do they feel, and according to their reaction, I may go on asking if they feel hungry, if they feel stronger, if they feel that all their nutritional needs are being met. Most of the times it turns out that no, they don't *feel* so great in terms of strength, satiety, nutritional needs being met. I know they probably think I'm a major, envious rhymes-with-witch when I do that, but I hope that this will lead them to really think about what they are doing and what the effects of that on their bodyes are.

I've lost fat due to my pregnancy but it's no big deal to me either way. If anything it's caused me to have to wear maternity clothes that are a size too large! (Ugh. I look so frumpy!)

I had a friend over not too long ago and she said, "You've lost weight!" and I was like, "Yeah...it happens in pregnancy sometimes."

"Oh, well, I think you look all the better for it." my friend replied with a huge grin.

I was totally stunned! I had no idea what to say in reply! All I could think was, "Good gravy! Did I look THAT bad before I lost a dress size?!" But then I reeled myself back into reality...

What a way to make a woman feel like crap! I know she was only trying to "compliment" me but still. I can see how a fat woman who loses a bit of fat due to whatever would then feel terrified of regaining that weight! Thankfully I'm not worried about gaining more weight ~ but I can't help but hurt for all the women and men out there who are thus "complimented" and led to believe that they are ugly when they weigh more.

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." ~Mother Teresa

P.S. I agree with BigLiberty! This whole weight-loss culture is extremely self-centered and self-serving. Imagine what we could do to change the sufferings of this world if we focused the same amount of energy not on ourselves but on those who are hungry and homeless and hurting from crushing poverty???

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." ~Mother Teresa

I dont support weight loss when the weight loss is motivated by a third party influence of any kind (for whatever reason)

There can be a multitude of personal reasons why weight loss might be chosen and I genuinely support some of them.

I support the personal choice to lose weight when an individual is experiencing related joint pains/damage; I support the personal choice to lose weight when an individual has become uncomfortable or in pain whilst undertaking activities that are key in their quality of life; and I unreservedly support the personal choice to lose weight when an individual is suffering a decline in their overall mobility due to their size.

High minded principles regarding weight loss in general are fine by themselves, but they should not superceed common sense nor should they sacrifice compassion for their ideological purity.

The Fat Acceptance movement has nothing to gain by choosing a path of denial towards the negative realities I mention above. A movement based on groupthink and built on a foundation of willfull denial makes a weaker point than one that takes a more measured, honest and (therefore) defensible view.

Perhaps this all makes me "Fat Acceptance 'lite'" in your eyes? Ultimately, when it comes down to I think its better to be "Fat Acceptance -lite" than it is, in my view, to be "Reality-lite".

^But you have to agree that there is cognitive dissonance in spades. We all have scientific and circumstantial evidence that long-term substantial weight loss is almost impossible for non-eating-disordered individuals (i.e., individuals at a setpoint natural for their body chemistry). Even if one does want to lose weight due to the above, how can you be consistent with the science, which says you're just torturing yourself to get into some impossible body?

Individuals with what they believe are weight-related pains or problems need to be helped to be strengthened/etc so that they can find a more sustainable solution to their pains/etc. Dieting just isn't sustainable, and it's naive to pretend that some people can just "decide" to permanently lose X lbs. Do you see how that isn't Fat Acceptance, either?

BigLiberty,

I agree with you. The science and circumstantial evidence does indeed back the assertion that long term weight loss is nigh-on impossible... and yes... I absolutely concur with your caveat to that statement regarding non-eating-disordered individuals.

I would argue that there is a distinction to be made between people who are at a natural 'fat' set-point and those that are genuinely in the grip of an eating disorder that has taken them well beyond such a set point.

I've found that the subject of eating disorders within the fat acceptance community seems somewhat taboo. My anectdotal experience would seem to suggest that emotional eating and binge eating are a fairly widespread issue. Perhaps someone can direct me to a study that proves the contrary? Again, I feel that this is another area where groupthink and ideological purity can impinge upon compassion and common sense.

It is not a failure in Fat Acceptance to acknowledge that very high weight can and will cause physical pains and problems. Fat is not the cause of all ills but there is no doubt about it potential (at very high weights) to limit mobility, activity and to lower one's overall quality of life. Some will be ok with that and some wont.

Those that aren't ok with it are no less part of the 'Fat Acceptance' movement if they take steps to address underlying eating disorders, to engage in activities with the dual purpose of improving fitness and reducing body mass. It is not folly or wrong-headed to promote this as a realistic path to self-help for those that are in this position.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I dont think the language of exclusion towards people taking these kinds of actions is helpful either to the individuals concerned or to the strength of the fat acceptance movement. We owe it to ourselves to be inclusive with our principles and to acknoweldge that rigid adherance to the rigid ideology of "NO WEIGHT LOSS" can sometimes be harmful and disenfranching to the lot of those that it seeks to help.

So this discussion has been had thousands of times before? To me, that says something about its importance to Fat Acceptance. I think that things that are important should be tackled thoroughly otherwise they will keep popping up like fat acceptance landmines, marring the progress that we all seek to make.

But yes, its your site so I'll drop it.

I don't think it's been 'covered' adequately but perhaps I've failed to communicate my general points properly as your reply appears to misunderstand them?

I know of many examples of super sized people, within the movement, who are struggling with the dichotomy here. So I'm coming from a place of sincerity and not antagonism... Anyway, I will take up your invitation to e-mail in private, as per you as you request.

I had trouble feeling happy for my aunt when she lost a lot of weight through her gastric bypass surgery. For starters, I have always thought she was beautiful, even when she was fat. I had trouble thinking she was pretty after she lost so much weight so quickly. Her skin sags now and her face looks very thin to me. I don't think I've commented on her weight loss yet.

I did manage to comment with something like 'Wow, you have to take all those pills now? All so you could be skinny?'. She was telling our family about how many vitamins and supplements she has to take daily, because she can not physically ingest enough food to maintain her body anymore. I think she got irritated at my remark though because she bragged about how it was totally worth it because of how happy she is now. Personally, I think she's full of shit because she has always loved to cook and eat.

Sorry, Paul, I just want to say one thing about EDs within the fat community:

Acknowledging binge eating disorder and "emotional eating" (which is fuzzily defined, since skinny people can engage in it too) exist does not mean it should be treated with weight loss. You've mixed up your causality. The root problem with EDs is psychological, not physical.

If someone has a genuine ED they need psychotherapy. Sometimes, when they resolve their issues, they gain/lose weight as a natural offshoot (sometimes they don't). The point is, *weight loss during binge-ED recovery is not because that person is going on a weight-loss diet, but because they're eating normally.* Same thing with weight gain after an ED (though some push their bodies to the point where they need therapeutic regain approaches which have special diets associated with them, but that's a physical issue).

And the final point: we're not talking about EDs in this thread. I think each of us has been careful to define what we mean by weight loss and dieting. Banging on this drum is off-topic, which is what Paul was trying to say. And there are many bloggers who talk about ED within FA --- binge-ED, too. It's not something we ignore. Sorry, but your argument seems to parallel the "those fatties are just sticking their heads in the sand" anti-FA mantra. Understandably, it gets irritating after a while to retread old ground.

Now back to our original programming!
Annie, I've been thinking about your dilemma, and here's my what I've come to:

Her: "I've eaten X and Y, and have Z calories left for today, so I think I might eat A or B, which are less than Z calories."

You: "Is that so? I had the best chicken sandwich today. Lots of mayo, just like I like it. And tonight I'm planning on sharing a porterhouse with DH. Do you like yours medium rare? I love it with a little pink in the middle still, don't you?"

In other words, if she's going to share her diet (read, what she eats) with you, you get to share *your* diet with *her*. If she gets indignant, use that as an opening to say that if she's going to talk about her diet, you're going to talk about your dinner. If she thinks you're triggering her or trying to "sabotage" her, then tell her she's "sabotaging" your effing peace and quiet, and you're not really interested in a 24/7 updating of the contents of her stomach.

If that's not nice enough for you...anything nicer feels like cookie-ing to me. It's like I tell my DF's son, who has a really clingy friend who won't take a hint: "Sometimes you have to be straight with them. Being nice doesn't work. Ignoring them doesn't work. Avoiding them doesn't work. You've got to confront them, and tell them very honestly that it's 'over'. Or else they'll never stop, because anything less than that is encouragement to them."

I know in a real-life work situation, it's not that easy. But try the "dinner" approach, and use that as a segue into telling her that her diet talk gets on your nerves, and that not everyone is interested in her diet. Tell her that it's like if you went on and on about every (full-fat!) morsel that went into your mouth all the time, and how annoying *she'd* find *that.* Try to put her in your shoes. That's all you can do, really. Anything less is cookie-ing the obsessive diet mentality. She might think of what's going in her mouth constantly (and I assure you, she likely is) but that doesn't mean *you* have to!

^Oh, FYI: the "you" in the first paragraph was not referring to Paul, but to jth298.

To jth:

What exactly is the point where you get "super-sized?" Because everyone has their own limits when it comes to fat. Some people think weighing 140 lbs is too much, some people think once you get over 200, that's too much. You are placing morality on weight and equating fitness with slimness, and that is wrong.

You also have to realize that there are people out there who do function normally at higher weights and don't have mobility issues, just like people who function normally at lower weights.

I have lost weight in the past not because of my eating habits and a decision to diet, but I had a job where I was on my feet moving about 7 hours out of an 8 hour day, pushing and lifting and doing activities with nursing home residents. But my physical health stayed the same.

The key is to think objectively when it comes to fat, and not be a sheep spewing out the same old stereotypes and buying into size myths, and to not be in the guise of being "concerned for our health" when in reality, you're just turned off by the appearance of fat people.

I'm in a situation right now where I've begun to lose weight, and have to deal with praise from others and questions about how I did it. I honestly don't know what to say. Ummm...I'm much more active now that I'm not in a hospital room 23 hours a day watching my fiancé die of cancer, I don't drink several sugary, caffeinated beverages a day just to make it through the day anymore, I'm on anti-depressants now and thus have energy to do something other than lay on the couch all day, tired, depressed, sometimes even suicidal, I stopped eating as many refined carbs because my blood sugar came back high, so I want to keep that in check. But I honestly don't know which, if any, of those might have played a roll in my weight loss, sorry.

Oh, and glad to know that you noticed my weight gain while I was spending every waking moment of my life caring for someone I love deeply, and watching him slowly waste away from the disease that took his life.

I mean, seriously, how the hell do I respond to that crap?

People get so wounded when you don't praise their dieting and weight loss efforts! It's such a ritualized exchange in our society, much like "Have a nice day" or "how are you?"--"Fine how are you?." I have used some of the tactics discussed here to try to move folks off of the expected "cookie" exchange; my personal favorite is simply to change the subject or redirect into something related but not diet and weight loss. Many folks I've encountered not only get a wounded look, they PERSIST until someone, ANYONE responds the way they want. I guess I am going to have to stop being so subtle, and address my utter dislike of this societal ritual in a more upfront way!

ok... I thought that discussion was closed, but then it's obviously been re-opened by others so I will respond.

[Edited by Paul - uh, no, please. That part of the discussion is closed. Thanks]

To Bree and BigLiberty. For the record I answered your points in an attempt to clarify mine but the response got deleted.

I'm not a troublemaker... I'm not attacking anyone. I note that the points of others, including those of Paul, on the subject remain unedited in place.

I feel quite annoyed that my responses merited censure but obviously I dont have any say in this matter.

Disappointingly closed minded.

[Edited by Paul: I'll leave this one up; readers are welcome to draw their own conclusions.]

Does anyone remember a talk show (It may or may not have been Oprah) where they had on a bunch of women who had lost a great deal of weight but it turns out the reason one of the women lost all that weight was because she was harboring a terminal illness? Of course, they didn't let you know this woman was already dead until after her segment was aired. Apparently, the woman was so proud of her 'NEW LOOK' that she told the producers to air her segment even though she would already be dead when the show aired. Now that, to me, is really, really, horribly sad and pathetic. But, a lot of woman (too many, really) have that mind set...And the media encourages it!!!

I'm just happy for people who are happy. I'm not so bitter that I can't give someone a high five for reaching their personal milestones. It has nothing to do with fat hate, but everything to do with the person.

jth298, I saw your comments (some before they were edited) and I agree with them. You made some valid points. I'm unsure why they would have been yanked/edited in the first place.

I can see quite clearly that "several other people commented on the coercive nature of such compliments," and I am taking the opposite stance. Perhaps others' personal milestones impact your life in such a negative way because you let them.

I'm not going to crap on my friends, family, coworkers and acquaintances because they've intentionally lost weight, run a marathon, or achieved other personal fitness goals, in the same way I wouldn't crap on someone for having a child, getting married, going to college, getting a PhD, or moving to the city of their dreams. That's just one of the pitfalls of being a decent person, I guess.

And I think it's pretty clear that I'm not going to congratulate anyone for "causing themselves harm or insulting others." We're not talking about racists or rapists here - we're talking about people losing weight, by choice. If it's so offensive to see someone lose weight, then don't mince words and give them some snarky remark; just don't associate with them. You'll save them a whole lot of heartache.

Why are we so angry at each other? We need seatbelts, we need job security, we need healthcare. Why shun those who are merely "playing the game" to get the things they need - now? Turn that anger out to the people who are putting us in these positions.

I'm with jth and TraciJo. Whether we're struggling for rights or against the scale, this is no community if it can't stand behind every struggling fat person out there. I'd rather be "Fat Acceptance Lite" than an exclusive jerk to the people who are trying to get by in a thin man's world, just like all of us.

I will congratulate someone who has lost weight for health reasons, like their knees and back were giving out, or they couldn't walk a block without getting out of breath. My brother recently lost 150 pounds and will probably lose another 50-100; he was morbidly obese with untreated diabetes and could barely get out of bed, and he developed abcesses that got infected and nearly killed him. He'll always be a big guy, but he can be healthy and big.

To me, that's like congratulating someone whose cancer has gone into remission. Not "Yay, you're closer to the stick-thin ideal of beauty our society endorses!", but "Yay, you can walk up a flight of stairs and ride a bike now!"

I myself have lost weight in the past year, due to selling my car and riding my bike/walking everywhere, and bringing my lunch to work so I don't have to rely on fast food. I get annoyed when people congratulate me on my "weight loss"; to me the more important thing is that I feel healthier. I'm still a size 18-20 and happy to be it.

When already-thin co-workers start in on the "Wah, I just want to lose 5 pounds!" or "Look, I lost 20 pounds starving myself on the Master Cleanse!", I just say "You looked fine to me before". And when I'm expected to join in on the self-loathing I just say that I feel healthy and I think I look fine. Probably why I have a reputation as a "smug bitch" around the office.

@secondhelpinglaura:

Sometimes civil disobedience isn't nice. It's got to be honest, first off. And yes, sometimes it does have to be radical to get its point across.

Like many have said, there are so many communities that cookie people who engage in intentional weight loss, that I think the "disinclusion" of them is not the heartbreaking meanness you make it out to be.

"I'm not going to crap on my friends, family, coworkers and acquaintances because they've intentionally lost weight, run a marathon, or achieved other personal fitness goals, in the same way I wouldn't crap on someone for having a child, getting married, going to college, getting a PhD, or moving to the city of their dreams. That's just one of the pitfalls of being a decent person, I guess."

The difference between losing weight intentionally and running a marathon, achieving fitness goals (lower weight doesn't equal greater fitness, by the way), having a child, getting married, going to college, getting a PhD, or moving to the city of one's dreams? Losing weight intentionally is personally harmful (both psychologically and likely physically, since you're putting your body through a good deal of stress), and insulting to others (indirectly, by letting them know there is some unacceptable weight level which they might themselves be over; and directly, by feeding more money into the bloated weight loss industry, feeding the misconceptions behind body size and health, etc).

Those other things are good. And I don't consider someone decent who cookies others for their fallacious and harmful behavior. And I don't consider honest people indecent, which is your implication (since honest doesn't equal nice).

And I'm not "offended" by seeing someone lose weight. It's their body, they can't do whatever they want to it. I'm just not going to cookie them when they beg for it. I'm going to let them know what I really think. If that's not "nice," well, change is rarely effected by people who are concerned about others liking them, first and foremost. Take that as you will.

BL, by jove! That's perfect! And I don't think it's "not nice" - it's just right. Thank you!!

Zero isn't a size, it's a warning sign. - Carson Kressley
The Kevin Pease Beer Fund Foundation - Won't Someone PLEASE think of the psychology students?

You can say that any of those things - childbirth, marriage, college, moving - is "personally harmful" and puts one's "body through a great deal of stress." You can say that any of those things is "insulting to others." Why dieting? Why does it matter so much if, by your own admission, people can do what they want with their bodies?

I stand by what I said. I'm not going to continue to parse your arguments for meaning; you will always find a way to justify this. I can't.