Beth Ditto's Racist Photo Shoot

Yeesh. Yet another reason to ignore fashion altogether!

BTW, I do not think Ditto's outfit was flattering to her at all. The colors were far too bright to be worn by someone that pale. The colors and patterns also clashed hideously, and the bedspread did nothing to help.

My impression FWIW: That some people are treated like paper plates (cheap and expendable) is spot-on. That this only affects people of color, I'm not so sure about.

I was on a cleaning crew at a hospital and I heard incredible things said between medical staff as well as discussions between doctors and patients. Doctors would excuse nurses so they could speak privately with patients and their families, but would not bother to dismiss me. I was privy to it all. And why not? Who was I but a housekeeper - a non-entity. What I heard did not matter. The color of my skin (pinkish taupe) did not register with these people, but the color of my uniform (blue) did. (A physician once heard me comment that it was difficult to remove staples from the carpet in his office, so he thereafter periodically emptied his stapler onto the floor. This healer of humans...)

I agree with Akitachow.

I'm not a follower of fashion much, but I can recall seeing pictures and ads very similar to this one but featuring Kate Moss-sized models. Is there any possibility that Beth might have done this very tongue-in-cheek as if to say: hey, the only odd stereotype in this image is me b/c I'm rich and not thin! If I were thin you wouldn't look twice at this picture!

Two other comments: art is best when it is uncomfortable and thought provoking. What is the point of an innocuous photo shoot (other than to sell, sell, sell)? If Ditto read the commentary her shoot has provoked she might be pleased by the reactions.

Also, I can recall certain Brits (Ian McKellen comes to mind) jokingly asking interviewers not to print specific comments they'd made (usually ironic or made with dry wit) in American papers because Americans aren't likely to get the humor. Sometimes I think mountains are made of molehills and no benefit of the doubt is given. Everything has to be inspected and the correct line toed. It's boring.

Sometimes I think mountains are made of molehills and no benefit of the doubt is given. Everything has to be inspected and the correct line toed. It's boring.

Yeah, being concerned about racism and the perpetuation of racist stereotypes is SO boring. *eyeroll*

If a person of color says something is offensive, it might do all of us well to sit down, shut up, and listen to WHY they think it is offensive instead of jumping in with some kneejerk defensive dismissal.

For example - I totally don't see Ditto as imitating a geisha look because her skin is always that pale, her bangs are just that blunt, and her lips are pink, not red. But people have pointed out the similarity and, in that context, I see how it reads that way. It's not intentional, but in something as deliberate as a photoshoot - and if you think things are left to chance in photos and films, well, think again - that is something that ought to be considered.

Also, just FYI akitachow - you don't have to follow fashion to know Beth Ditto. She's a muscian.

kemelios, I didn't say I thought you were white. "All of us" means, literally, all of us. There is no unspoken "whitey" tacked on at the end, there.

The reality of many housekeepers being people of color and being treated poorly by rich whites is, in and of itself, a problem generated by the racism inherent in American society. A picture that continues, without making the viewer question it, to show that as "just the way things are" is, yes, perpetuating racist imagery.

And, you know what's really funny to ME? I've not suggested you sit down and shut up in this thread. I've just said I think you are all kinds of wrong. Saying you are wrong is not the same thing as saying you shouldn't talk. Saying we as viewers need to sit down, shut up, and listen when a person of color says something is offensive is in no way saying you shouldn't talk here - though it IS a firm suggestion that you think about why people of color have taken issue with this image instead of dismissing it - because your comment, whether you intend it or not, seriously reads as dismissive.

Wow, I read all of the comments here, and I assumed that Beth Ditto must have been photographed in a posh hotel room, sipping a glass of champagne, with one booted foot on the back of an unfortunate maid.
(No, it not "sexy", it's "sexIST"... spinal tap)

What I saw was a very attractive young woman, in a maid's uniform, looking rather bored, playing cards with Beth Ditto in her usual punky kind of attire. The take I got on it was Beth was hanging out with someone as bored as she was, (perhaps on her break) waiting around in her hotel. I saw them as being rather equal, breaking boundaries to just hang out together, rather than all of the subliminal racist subtext that some are picking up on. (ie; the poor woman was forced to play cards against her will, etc.) I think that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Yes, perhaps it is stereotypical to pick a person of color to play the part of the maid. Or, maybe they were going for a gritty-punk reality kind of thing, to show that Beth is down to earth and flouting authority by treating her maid like a real person instead of an "invisible person." I don't think that the maid is "drab" while Beth is in bright colors; that maid is, I mean, completely phsyically stunning, in face and figure far closer to the feminine "ideal" than Beth is. Artists like provoking juxtopositions, and obviously this one worked smashingly.

I don't think we need to get down on Beth for the photo. I doubt any of this came up while they were shooting... it would be similar to her hanging out in the back alley with the guys from kitchen, smoking a cigarette. Challenging boundaries, rather than trying to perpetuate them.

I think that sometimes racism is perceived because a POC involved when the offensiveness is not directly about race. As I think is true in this case, it is more about status than race, atlhough there is also the question of BD's make up.

Trading in so called far eastern 'instructability' to represent froideur is something that especially women who hail from that part of the world find incredibly tiresome to say the least and have told us so.

Although the two women are represented a playing the most unconvincing card game I've seen in a long time, they are clearly not engaged with one another. Maid type work requires a lot more than physical graft, it requires a heck of a lot of mental energy, time is tight. This woman maintains her 'work concentration', although posed, I think this is deliberate on her part, she's made her point with the class that BD is trying to muster, she knows the score, this is all about Ditto and her cronies, she's a prop. It represents reality alright, that's the point, it condones it, it doesn't challenge, yet it's obviously stylised. Which is how a lot of the supercool, music,fashion crowds think is their birthright. I'm sure they'd be the first to codemn imatitors that miss the mark, tired ideas, lack of freshness.

Ditto has made other remarks that were felt to be ill judged, namely the one about gay men being to blame for the anorexically fashionable shape that oppresses women.

I've seen her on T.V. I found her to be charming; bright and funny. She is still young and finding her voice.
I didn't like the element of her being some kind of symbol for fat acceptance to show it's true colours. Failure though is above ideology and sometimes people are very unforgiving of it.

Classism and racism intersect - they can both exist in the same picture. So, yeah, the image would still be problematic from a classism perspective no matter color the housekeeper was.

akitachow, intent doesn't matter - the text (or image or whatever) is the thing. If I had a personal relationship with the photographer who concepted this thing, I could sit down and figure out what his/her intent was - and if they intended well, I wouldn't have to be angry with them though I'd still point out that they totally rolled a critical failure on this one. Because their intent is not born out by the image on the page.

This is what I had to say about this issue at Kate's blog:

I’ve seen the picture before the controversy, and I didn’t see Beth’s hair and makeup as Geisha-like; to me her hair, makeup, and outfit was a throwback to 1980’s New Wave.

Which is ironic because during the early to mid 1980s, there was this short-lived obsession with the Japanese culture and red & white & black color schemes. White people were donning headbands with Asian characters; The Karate Kid was huge, and David Bowie and The Vapours were loving their China Girl and Turning Japanese, respectively. So if Beth Ditto is apppropriating a look from another culture, she isn’t the first to do it and she certainly won’t be the last.

This is what another poster at SP had to say:

If the housekeeper would have been white, the picture still would have “worked” somewhat (in that it would have had roughly the same story). If it was just some random Latina in jeans and a t-shirt, it would have just been kind of confusing. But the fact that it is a Latina housekeeper adds a racist message to the already classist one.

And here's me agreeing with this poster:

That’s my take on this picture. But it’s also interesting to see the facial expressions of the housekeeper and Beth. It’s like they somehow know this picture will cause controversy. This is also why I don’t read high-fashion magazines. It seems they deliberately create these images for their own amusement.

I always find it extremely uncomfortable when white people comment that they "don't see the racism" in a certain text/image.

For me, the first question is: Why *would* you see the racism? When do white people ever really see racism unless it's extremely obvious and blatant?

Because it doesn't affect you, it's much easier to ignore.

To me, it seems fairly obvious that this stereotypical Hispanic maid is being treated like a prop instead of a human, while the focus of the image is on the white woman. Ditto looks glamorous and smug, while the maid just looks downtrodden and "used".

I need to further flesh out my thoughts and write a longer, more articulate post in the forums, but more and more I'm beginning to feel like the product of focusing on intersectionality is that white people can now just find something else to blame because they are still so uncomfortable with the reality and pervasiveness of racism ("Oh, it's not really her race, it's her *class*).

I don't particularly see the geisha reference in the shot either. Beth's outfit looks very much of a style that was popular here a couple of years back (my ex had a very similar shirt) and as Bree points out, appeared more about cashing in on the recent 80s music revival than any form of cultural theft. Her skin is VERY pale, and I suspect the dramatic New Romantic black hair, bright pink nails and lips etc only serve to exacerbate her natural tone. It's a look (the leggings, and haircut in particular) which in my mind is more usually associated with thin girls, so maybe Beth's trying to subvert that somehow.

I've read a lot online about it, but in all honesty I still don't 'get' how this whole appropriation thing is supposed to work. From what I can gather it's basically saying that unless you stick rigidly to the styles of dress, music etc of your own national / ethnic background you're somehow committing some kind of political sin.

Fashion is constantly evolving and changing, usually in response to outside influences - does adopting (and adapting) those influences count as appropriation? I've seen Japanese teenagers wear Converse All-Stars and denim overalls - is this a legitimate expression of appreciation for US youth culture, or is it only theft if it's committed by members of the (dominant) Western culture? Or on another note, could it be evidence of the dominance of Western culture that those from other countries / more traditional cultures feel attracted to it and driven to adopt it? (I do appreciate that some cultures are privileged over others, and I understand that much of this is driven by a Western fascination with the 'exotic' which those so labelled find patronising and harmful).

In short, I'm genuinely confused about the issue. However I suppose what I'm getting at is that if it's not corrupting or disrespecting a person's religious beliefs or the paraphernalia of their faith I'm not entirely sure where the offense lies. ie. the salwar kameez debate on the original fatshionista thread (the salwar isn't specifically associated with Islam or any specific area but is a garment widely worn across SE Asia - in India by women, in Pakistan and Bangladesh, by both sexes). And don't they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

I'm not even touching the issue of the representation of the Filipino (?) housekeeper with a ten-foot pole, because I've seen too many people mercilessly shot down not for deliberate malicious intent but for not immediately grasping all the nuances of the issue, or worse, disagreeing with another person's assertions on the matter - and am nowhere near confident enough of my place in this movement to go around deliberately making enemies out of people.

**EDIT** I've had a look at the Wikipedia page on cultural appropriation, and edited my post to remove a couple of bad examples which on reflection rather missed the point. I think I was probably on the right lines with the bit about assimilation into the dominant Western cultural hegemony and the concomitant obliteration / removal of meaning or significance attached to certain cultural artefacts. ScruffMcGruff, I apologise belatedly for ghasting your flabber

"if you think fat people have no self-discipline, consider the fact that they haven’t killed you yet." - Miss Conduct, Boston Globe

richie79, the thing with appropriation is that you really have to figure out your own line in the sand for it. Sure, as a couple people have observed, Ditto is drawing on styles from the 80s - but those 80's styles really DID blatantly appropriate Japanese and Chinese imagery.

Imitation isn't always flattery - sometimes it is just straight up theft. And people aren't always going to agree about these things. That's okay. But white people also need to be aware that, as members of a race which has historically gone about stealing everything it can from any culture it encountered, we (meaning me and other white people, not necessarily you) need to check our defensiveness at the door when someone says something is appropriative, racist, or offensive.

I'm going to try and find a good link explaining cultural appropriation to post here.

In short, no, Richie, it has nothing to do with a British man not wearing jeans, and I'm flabbergasted that that would cross your mind w/r/t to the extremely hurtful practice of appropriation.

More often than not, you can't substitute "British, American, or Western" for any other culture when it comes to issues of race. For example, a northern African woman wearing a Coca Cola logo t-shirt is in no way, shape, or form, the same as a white man in America deciding to wear a dashiki.

Bootness, I'm not referring to *this* photo as the only example of white people more often than not (in my experience) silencing POC when issues of race are brought up. It's a pretty standard practice--"Oh, lighten up, take a joke, you're playing the race card, don't be so sensitive, you're reading too much into it."

I have no objection to using "white people" as a blanket statement. Being "white" means nothing more than being part of a social construction that awards one an insanely unfair amount of privilege. So, white America as a monolith does act in a certain way. I don't mean every single white person does this, but the constructed class of whiteness has certain attributes without which being "white" wouldn't mean anything at all.

The point is that without classism racism would find it far harder to gain purchase and be sustained therefore people like scruffmcgruff who dismiss classism, just end up ghettoising blacks in isolation when the poor often recognise that they have struggles in common, MLK recognised that, Malcolm X recognised that in the end.
I'm well aware that people use classism sometimes to avoid dealing with racism, but that doesn't mean it is always a false argument.

One of the reasons I feel the need to get involved with FA is because of the racism by default of labelling fat people negatively, fat hate has become a trojan horse for racism, sexism and classism. I'm afraid FA has to prove this or that is not an option for POC they must get involved and derail this crap before it gets anymore out of hand.

I don't mean to dismiss classism at all; I'm saying that too often, because people are still so uncomfortable acknowledging and confronting their own racist privilege, they shift the emphasis to classism in order to avoid dealing with it.

I'm saying that too often, because people are still so uncomfortable acknowledging and confronting their own racist privilege, they shift the emphasis to classism in order to avoid dealing with it.

Again, I agree with this, but you also have to recognise that this sometimes causes people to 'dismiss classism' as I think you previously did.
To a certain extent each case has to be taken on its merits. You must ask yourself, when you perceive racism that is, what would this mean, if the people concerned were any other race? In this case it would make no essential difference. The maid ended up being used as prop because of her job and the status it affords her.

The stereotype of a Hispanic maid, is the latest in a long line, maids are whoever has to do that job at any one time.

To talk of racism without class is like talking about poverty without mentioning the economic system. One informs the other.

I have to be honest here. I am very uncomfortable with the sensationalized headlines on many SA without even giving her a chance to respond to the accusations first. Racism is extremely ugly and it is hard to undo the damage that label can cause. My thoughts:
#1 I don't know whose perspective the photo is taking. Could it be that of the maids?
#2 I don't see dressing up as a geisha the same as "blackface" or even using Native Americans as mascots. They are despicable IMO. But geisha can be an archetype in femininity. Ditto has played on female icons before, like dressing like Monroe. Would it be racist if a Japanese actress dressed up as Monroe and had a white maid? Maybe! Maybe Not! It all depends on the point they were trying to make.
#3 I think there is a difference between being ignorant or even insensitive and in your face knowing what you are doing. I teach cultural diversity. I have worked for the Human Rights Fair Housing Commission. I was married to an Japanese American. I fight racism with everything I have. There was just an article in the Trib about how different races are afraid to interact with each other because of fear of making a mistake and being accused of being a racist. It actually causes physiological stress. We need more dialogue. I love the approach of one diversity educator who tells her seminar guest they are going to make mistakes. That allows them to explore issues. Again, if it is deliberate, that should not be tolerated under ANY circumstances. But I feel many people were influenced by the OP interpretation of the picture. At any rate, we should hear what Ms. Ditto has to say and see how she handles it before we do what could be very serious damage to her career.

p.s. Just because some people really go into denial about racism does not mean that is the case every time there is an honest disagreement. Agree with me or you are in denial is a circular argument that gets us nowhere.

There was just an article in the Trib about how different races are afraid to interact with each other because of fear of making a mistake and being accused of being a racist. It actually causes physiological stress. We need more dialogue. I love the approach of one diversity educator who tells her seminar guest they are going to make mistakes.

I agree that the maid seems to be used as a prop in the photo - and that is a problem, a problem that needs to be talked about. But I agree with pani113.

I got my Bachelor's degree at an international university - and it deserved the name since we had students from all continents and from over 60 countries (which is remarkable if you consider that there were only about 1,000 students in total). Though this was generally a positive experience, I have felt at times the fear and discomfort of interacting with people from different countries and ethnic backgrounds. Fortunately, most people at my university were quite open to interact and to discuss without accusing me of deliberate racism, but I have also been called a racist because I stated the opinion that while former Euopean colonies still face problems that have their roots in the colonial past, and while the rich European and Northern American countries still exploit other countries, not all problems faced by many African, Asian and South American countries are due only to these factors. I have also been literally told to "repent" for being German.

I realize that growing up in the society I did grow up I have internalized certain prejudices, and this includes some racism. I also realize that for me - as a white Western European - having internalized prejudices against people from different races and ethnic backgrounds is more problematic than for the people from less priviledged groups to hold prejudices against me, simply because my prejudices have more potential to unfairly and negatively influence the life of members of the respective groups I hold prejudices against. I try to work on my prejudices and I try to acknowledge my priviledges. However, every time someone calls me racist (or, since I am German, a Nazi) this is a slap in my face - and it makes me afraid of future interactions. And honestly, sometimes it is also hard for me to distinguish if the claims that something is racist are valid or not - because sometimes those claims are not valid. For example, I would still stand by my opinion that not all problems and conflicts any sub-Saharan African country has ever experienced are solely due the actions European and North American countries.

#1 I don't know whose perspective the photo is taking. Could it be that of the maids?

With respect pani, if you take a good look at the photo, you can answer your own question. The perspective is clearly Ditto's or her stylist's.

The issue is that there is more than one thing wrong with this picture, the critique was correct in that, I just feel that she saw race and ran with that, without questioning that, I think her and Ditto are of a similar ages, I think you could say Ditto made a similiar error. Lets' not make this about the trite 'reverse racism' argument.

Do you really fight racism as a favour to others? I think that's a shame for you, because I thought that fighting systems of oppression was about recognising how they interact, the price paid by the 'priviledged' to be part of upholding them, IOW the desire for personal liberation for oneself as well as others. Look at upper class feminists in the 60's, who threw off being put on a pedestal, to someone who has never been up there that might look like a pretty good deal, but they knew they were paying a very heavy price to be up there, and they didn't want any part of it.

There is nothing more uncomfortable making than racism, people are responsible for their own thoughts, that means people, ordinary people have power, one note criticism from all sides is the problem, we all have to be a bit more subtle in our thinking, and recognise that other people outside our identity groups exist, but it has been a very long hard fight that has cost a lot, people don't want to go backwards.

The people who called you racist for your remarks about former European colonies may or may not have been wrong, but your perspective is certainly odd, I don't know anyone who believes their problems are wholly down to colonalists, that has never been a secret.

Do you really fight racism as a favour to others? I think that's a shame for you, because I thought that fighting systems of oppression was about recognising how they interact, the price paid by the 'priviledged' to be part of upholding them, IOW the desire for personal liberation for oneself as well as others. Look at upper class feminists in the 60's, who threw off being put on a pedestal, to someone who has never been up there that might look like a pretty good deal, but they knew they were paying a very heavy price to be up there, and they didn't want any part of it.

There is nothing more uncomfortable making than racism, people are responsible for their own thoughts, that means people, ordinary people have power, one note criticism from all sides is the problem, we all have to be a bit more subtle in our thinking, and recognise that other people outside our identity groups exist, but it has been a very long hard fight that has cost a lot, people don't want to go backwards.

I suppose this was directed at me? If it was: I know this will sound strange, but I cannot give you an analysis WHY I fight (or at least think I fight) racism. Part of it is that I have some very good friends who have been exposed to outrageous things because of it (for example a friend who is half Turkish and who had people she wanted to rent an appartment from suddenly turn very cold when she mentioned her last name, another Chinese friend who was treated really badly by someone in an offical position, and a Bulgarian friend who is afraid of mentioning her last name in Western Europe because she fears people will stereotype her negatively - and she has reasons to feel like that). Another reason is that it just is unfair, and I don't want people to get hurt. It just feels wrong. Is that a good reason? Maybe not. It is my reason, though. (And honestly, I think your argument that the priveledged pay a higher price holding up the system then they would pay treating everyone fairly is not true. At least some people do benefit in very real ways from suppression of others.)

The people who called you racist for your remarks about former European colonies may or may not have been wrong, but your perspective is certainly odd, I don't know anyone who believes their problems are wholly down to colonalists, that has never been a secret.

I don't get why you say my perspective is odd. I did not say the majority claims this. This was ONE person, and I am not making the mistake to assume he speaks for everyone. But yes, he said those things, or at least this is how I remember our conversation (and memory is malleable to some degree - although I don't see why I should remember someone attacking me if he didn't do so). What I wanted to express is that I cannot take it at face value whenever someone from a disadvantaged group I don't belong to claims something is prejudiced - because the respective person is not necessarily more objective than I am. I can also not trust that I will see discrimination not directed at me, I can try to do so, but I might still not "get it", no matter how hard I try. So what am I supposed to do? The only solution I have found is to engage in long discussions, but for that I need people to talk to who assume that I have good intentions, and who do not label me as racist whenever I say something insensitive. That label is hurtful, and people who label another person with it in a discussion know it.

And by the way, if you haven't noticed: I agreed that the photo is problematic.

This shows me again why i shouldn't take part in public discourse. As someone who percieves life in general as surreal, i have no business speaking when i can't live up to anyone's definition of right thinking.

wriggle99 said

"Do you really fight racism as a favour to others? I think that's a shame for you, because I thought that fighting systems of oppression was about recognising how they interact, the price paid by the 'priviledged' to be part of upholding them, IOW the desire for personal liberation for oneself as well as others."

I don't think it's a shame at all. If people don't entirely understand the theory behind it, I am still glad they are fighting the good fight. Same with fat acceptance and size rights.

The point is that 'I know someone who thinks that everything wrong is down to racism' and 'my gut busting efforts to fight for you people' is as crude and as much of a dead end as the original critique, the former and the latter cause the unecessary stand offs is what I mean.

Others and myself have said class not race in this instance, so why can't we take it from there? To me it's naivety she saw something was wrong and misidentified it, we've all done that, the fire of youth, when what's wrong is so unforgiveable, pani knows about that she's a teacher. So why put distance between us, by invoking the purported ingratitude of POC? Maybe that is a discussion that should be had, but I can't see where it's going to go, 'thanks for your efforts, we remain forever in your debt???'

There are times when POC who feel that sometimes racism is called when there maybe other things going on, but they decline to say anything because they know this is where the discussion is likely to go, if they hadn't tried before, they wouldn't know, would they?

Anyway I did try, and I want those of you who are white to know, I don't expect any gratitude for my efforts.

wriggle - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think we are not communicating well. Maybe I did not express what I mean in a way that is understandable. But make me one thing clear: I don't think POCs or any other group that is discriminated against by my ingroup owe me anything. And I don't think I said that they do. Here is the thing: If racism, classism, xenophobia and all these things are injust - no matter why - and when I believe that they are injust and try to get rid of them in my own life I am giving people what was their right to begin with (or at least I am trying to). It's not an act of charity - it is accepting that the other is equal to me, and that therefore I don't deserve the priviledges I have, nor does the other person deserve not to have those priviledges.

Also, the very specific situation that I described was only meant to illustrate why I really don't know what to do when someone tells me something is an act of discrimination against his or her group and still don't see it after thinking about it. What am I supposed to do? Believe my judgement - although I might be unable to see this specific type of discrimination because just as my (and every human's) ability to empathize is not perfect, particularly when it comes to someone that might have very different life experiences than I did? Believe the other person's judgement although he or she has biases, too, simply because having biases is an unavoidable fact in human life?

I agree with you that the picture seems more classist than racist. In fact, I don't see the racism, even after trying to see it. What I see is a human being used as part of the "background". But I cannot be sure of the racism is there or not, and I wonder what to do in a situation like this.

*Hugs*

While it behooves each of us to be careful what we say, particularly on controversial subjects like this one, that does not mean you have no right to speak at all. Anyone who says or implies that is an asshat and should be ignored.

*Hugs*

Thanks, Jenny. I have thought about this topic a lot the last few days - particularly considering the discussion on Shapely Prose concerning racism. Here is the thing: I am not American. Although I have lived in the US for a bit over a year, I am not as familiar with some stereotypes that American culture promotes (and I have a few stereotypes that are unknown to most Americans). In my country, there are almost no Hispanic people and relatively few Black people. Historically, this was even more true. So one of the reasons why I don't see the racism in the picture might be that I am simply not as familiar with the stereotype people here say it promotes.

If anything, I have learned that when there are discussions in the fatosphere on racism I better listen for a long time before I say anything because I might not know the cultural context well enough. Also, my initial example was a bad one - my experiences with people of ethnic and cultural backgrounds have been mostly positive, and maybe my example made the impression that I was "blaming" all black people for unduly blaming white people - that was certainly not what I wanted to do. I would, however, ask people here to also consider that the fatosphere is not only American - there are people from other nationalities around with different societal structures and a different history. However, fatphobia is becoming more and more an international problem, and I think it should be fought internationally as well.

Also, my initial questions stands: What to do if someone tells you something is racist, and you really tried to see it but you still don't? Should you rely on the judgement of the other person, particularly if that person is a POC? Should you just leave it and try to take another look later on?

Wow, I'm not sure what to say here, but I feel like I need to say something. First off, I'll just give my perspective on this:
Also, my initial questions stands: What to do if someone tells you something is racist, and you really tried to see it but you still don't? Should you rely on the judgement of the other person, particularly if that person is a POC? Should you just leave it and try to take another look later on?
Some behaviors are obviously racist, and some are not so much. Some ignorant and rude behavior is described as racist because the recipient of the bad behavior is a different race than the boor. I believe it is best in many cases to simply describe unacceptable behavior as unacceptable, because labeling a behavior racist ascribes an inner motive. If someone states that their motivation is to eliminate one race or promote another, then that behavior is racist. In the case of the picture, I believe that it is best to say that it was poor judgement.
If someone is offended by behavior, they should state it and allow they person that caused offense to apologize. If the person doesn't apologize, or says or does something that makes the offense worse, then further steps may be taken.
We as humans have a huge problem with "rush to judgement" behavior. This is something that individuals should be mindful of.
Oh yea, I am white. I am married to a Hispanic. I know by our discussions and behaviors that I am more personally affected by race issues than him. I know that this is a personal issue as much as anything. Ok, I never know when to stop, so I'll stop now.

"What to do if someone tells you something is racist, and you really tried to see it but you still don't?"

I would agree that X was racist. I am white, so by defintion I cannot see things that people of other races do.

Jenny and kactus - in the last few hours (after stumbling across a comment on Shapely Prose that linked here) I did actually read a lot about racism in the US. Actually, it was the first really eye-opening reading that I have had in a long time, and though it did make me uncomfortable reading it also felt like a great opportunity for growth.

I think my question has been answered for the most part - or better, I got why I shouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

Okay, I should preface this by saying I don't know anything about Beth Ditto, musically or artistically so I'm coming at it from a different angle.

My first thought upon seeing the picture was "Wow, that's an ugly picture." But it didn't have anything to do with racism, perceived or real -- I just thought the colors were depressing and fractious, it looked like it was taken in a cheap Route 66 hotel room, and why the hell was that girl on the bed dressed up like Siouxsie Sioux? To be honest, it looked like it might preface a cheap porn shoot -- turn the page and Siouxsie and the maid drop their drawers and start rolling around on that awful bedspread, then the night watchman comes in and...

So help me God, that is what I thought when I looked at the picture. Seriously.

If I sat down and thought about it, I could find racism in the maid's ethnicity, although I couldn't really tell her race just from looking at her. I spent 20 years in San Diego and the hotel maids were all either Mexican or Filipino. This is a sad commentary on a lot of things, but I'm used to seeing hotel maids of color. It's one of those unconcsious racism things that you happen upon every so often in your life and go, huh, that's stupid, I need to quit thinking that way. And you do.

If you read the Fatshionista article, the writer talks about being fond of a performer called Dirty Martini until she discovered that Dirty Martini was a supporter of another performer who did comedy in blackface. That goes much farther toward what I would perceive as racism than this photograph. I'd have a hard time with someone performing comedy in blackface, it would bug the snot out of me, and it would bug me as well that another artist I liked was so supportive of this kind of performance.

Vis-a-vis the picture, I agree with Bootness. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

A few things:

I really think this is one of those cases where "agree to disagree" is as far as we'll get. To *me*, the picture looks one way. But it's highly interpretable.

Most cases of racism, however, are not. And it's not always about motive or intent. I very strongly disagree with that comment.

A lot of times, the intent is to be humorous, or to make light of political correctness or a host of other reasons. Sheer ignorance and entitlement is often the root.

When white women come up to me and ask me questions about my skin or my hair, their *intent* is not to denigrate my race. But when you're touching me without my permission and asking insensitive, all it does is alienate and offend me, even if you're asking out of curiosity. It's still racist.

I also have a really, really hard time believing it when White people say they feel like they're being asked to shut up. My first thought is probably boo hoo. I think 9 times out of 10, it's really just a ploy to be excused from a discussion where you might have to admit that you're wrong, that you engage in racist thoughts and activities.

IMO, it's certainly understandable for POC to ask Whites to listen. My view is that people are certainly blinded to things they don't experience. When I was thin, of course I didn't recognize the extent of fat hatred. If you're White, no matter how vigilant you are, you're never going to notice the extent of racism no matter what and things that seem "innocent" to you might really not be.

From my perspective, the answer is not to exclude yourself from the conversation (though I doubt I'll ever see the day a discussion about race on the internet isn't pretty much dominated by White people anyway), but to take into account the fact that saying things like that is similar to playing the victim, and shifting the focus to yourself. The important silencing that goes on is very, very rarely focused at White people. If you feel that you simply can't contribute to a discussion about race, it's probably not because you're White, it's probably because you're doing it wrong.

No, what's the irony?

I really think it's a marker of an extreme amount of privilege and entitlement to excuse yourself from racial discussions because you're "uncomfortable" or to segregate yourself from (or avoid, if you prefer that term) POC because you're afraid of being labeled racist.

There's a very kneejerk reaction that wells up in me whenever racial issues are brought up in a predominantly
White setting. I get defensive. I have extremely deep anger concerning racial issues in America. Go figure.

But I've never heard of distancing oneself from POC because of a fear of the racist label. I really think that's a crock of bull. Why not try harder to not come off as racist? Why not consider that if someone is making this accusation, there might be some merit in it? I've found very few in this country who've never, ever reflected negative stereotypes of POC.

There's always talk of White people being silenced or whatever. The discussion always shifts from the real issues (i.e. racism) to the feelings of White people. I have asked White people to be quiet and *listen* because it's possible they don't understand or always see how racism works. Is this really the same as saying 'just shut up'? I think there's a huge distinction.

And even if you *are* told to shut up, it's usually for good reason. I've been told to shut up and listen many times when I've said something offensive to the trans community. It doesn't give me an excuse to pretend trans issues no longer exist. It makes me realize I need to step back, listen and educate myself first, and then reengage as an active participant in the discussion. 'Shut up' doesn't mean 'Put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes'. It's an excuse, plain and simple, to opt of the responsibility of racism, which is on the backs of everyone who benefits from it, IMO.

BTW the reaching out thread was closed. Angry Black people were getting too rowdy.

I shouldn't be referring to all 'White people' as if they are all the same. I'm not so jaded that I believe that yet, heh.

Of course I know there are plenty of White people who don't segregate themselves out of fear. It's the ones who do that worry me.

Sometimes I find myself wondering if Obama wins, if that won't actually be a step back. You'll have people denying that racism could possibly exist in a county where the leader is Black.